Fragmented communities

[Drybonz]

BorgDog wrote:

I visit all most of the sites, read all most of the stuffs, can’t get enough of VP (a little OCD here). The one thing I really would like to see this community do is figure out how to get the VP development onto their own independent space. Doesn’t belong on vpf, doesn’t belong on vpu, doesn’t belong here, nor irpinball or roguepinball or monsterbashpincab or anywhere else. Needs it’s own space that isn’t trying to sell you something or push an agenda or anything else, just a place to talk about, add to, fix and continue to develop VP as the best damn pinball simulator out there!

It’s already possible to make virtual pinball tables online in a virtual space the same way any documents are created for business or anything else.  Just have to organize it.  The website doesn’t even become necessary until you want to distribute the tables to folks.  Then, I guess you would run into the same problems the existing sites have.  But if people want to get a group of people together, set up a drive space and a chat app that’s entirely possible without depending on anyone else.

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[Al]

Interesting thread. As a complete newb comparative to most, it took me about month to work out that VPF was nothing more than a commercial showcase, but, and the big but, it appeared to have more content, VPU was OK but annoying to download from, and as with both VPF and VPU once I paid for more access ( as I don’t find that a burden having run BBS’s back in the day ;) ) , I don’t frequent either that much, ( although VPU is a lot nicer after it’s refresh ), and VPin was just all about the um, look I’m going to say quality tables and associated, but I mean that in context of all tables being amazing in some way. I think this is my fave site, even though it is a bit quieter, I go to VPF or VPU if I have an issue to search as the forums are so large, and I prefer VPU/here and Monsterbash to download content… having said that, is there any other niche developer websites like MB ? Having enough italian in me ( from the waist down I like to say .. means you’ve got fat legs my wife likes to say ) i find it a table lovers wet dream, and I am also a build thread whore.

It is from an outsiders perspective interesting how there seems to be VPF and a lot of fractures and splinters around it, and also it was randr’s youtube’s that I enjoyed the most before delving in   I too just enjoy VP so I guess I’m a bit of a forum whore, but I’m mainly a lurker, except here, and I think that indicates where I feel most comfortable. More than a forum, it’s the people, and the people who hang out here and VPU I think are the one’s I’d like most to have a beer with, and then there would be a few on VPF, but not as many.

Cheers,

al.

 

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[BorgDog]

Drybonz wrote:

BorgDog wrote:

I visit all most of the sites, read all most of the stuffs, can’t get enough of VP (a little OCD here). The one thing I really would like to see this community do is figure out how to get the VP development onto their own independent space. Doesn’t belong on vpf, doesn’t belong on vpu, doesn’t belong here, nor irpinball or roguepinball or monsterbashpincab or anywhere else. Needs it’s own space that isn’t trying to sell you something or push an agenda or anything else, just a place to talk about, add to, fix and continue to develop VP as the best damn pinball simulator out there!

It’s already possible to make virtual pinball tables online in a virtual space the same way any documents are created for business or anything else. Just have to organize it. The website doesn’t even become necessary until you want to distribute the tables to folks. Then, I guess you would run into the same problems the existing sites have. But if people want to get a group of people together, set up a drive space and a chat app that’s entirely possible without depending on anyone else.

It’s not the tables I’m talking about, it’s VP itself, the VP10.2 beta thread in particular at this point in time and it’s associated bug tracker and repository for releases beta or final, and the fact that if in VP you go to Help, About and click on the button that says Website it takes you to vpforums.org.

- Star Wars Wedgehead cab build

- Alien Star Resurrection!

 

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[Drybonz]

BorgDog wrote:

if in VP you go to Help, About and click on the button that says Website it takes you to vpforums.org.

Oh… yeah, that’s a good point.   

Like a visualpinball.org or something like that would be good… like mamedev.org

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[randr]

yeah go to uninstall vp look at what that says in your apps in control panel. :)

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Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
for IOS and Android

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[Drybonz]

randr wrote:

yeah go to uninstall vp look at what that says in your apps in control panel. :)

I see that now… like a “property of” stamp.

 

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[randr]

yeah it should go to github or something

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Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
for IOS and Android

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bord

[freneticamnesic]

It took 9 minutes to download vpm

Punch it!

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[Dazz]

HauntFreaks wrote:

I still check the site, now and then…. but after the downloading process was crippled, not so much having a DL limit per-day is understandable, but the 60sec wait is silly, also that you can’t browse while you wait, also silly VPU was my go to site at one time, laid back, great dudes (still great dudes) but the crippling put a bad taste in my mouth… I know many VIP’s there… they also feel the crippling as for the other stuff… i could care less if there are banners and product placement… that doesnt affect me in the least… on a side note… the new site looks really nice

Well, this is the type of shit and feedback that I have been asking for since we started VPU… People have always been afraid to speak up and very few recommendations were ever received. I’ve always taken into consideration what the community needs/needed when it comes to VPU.  Of course everyone would love to be able to download unlimited files at unlimited speeds and with no wait, but it just wasn’t feasible with limited tech that we have. I couldn’t keep up with the finances required to run the site and donations were far and few between to be of any assistance, but I didn’t want/mean to cripple the site.  Even after implementing the limits, I still received no feedback from the community and had assumed that all was well.

I agree that 60 seconds may be a bit longer than it should be, but that is what was recommended to stop site skimming/auto-downloaders that were killing the sites at the time. I just made some major changes to this, regarding the wait time as well as speeds.  This is the type of feedback that we NEED from the community.  Of course there is no possible way that I’m going to be able to make everyone happy, but I can try.  Without feedback and reports if something isn’t working correctly; then I have no way of knowing what’s wrong and can’t fix something if I don’t know it’s broken.

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[Dazz]

BorgDog wrote:

I visit all most of the sites, read all most of the stuffs, can’t get enough of VP (a little OCD here). The one thing I really would like to see this community do is figure out how to get the VP development onto their own independent space. Doesn’t belong on vpf, doesn’t belong on vpu, doesn’t belong here, nor irpinball or roguepinball or monsterbashpincab or anywhere else. Needs it’s own space that isn’t trying to sell you something or push an agenda or anything else, just a place to talk about, add to, fix and continue to develop VP as the best damn pinball simulator out there!

Actually, this is how it use to be… PinMAME as well as Visual Pinball had their own individual communities.  The first incarnation of VPForums was just that, discussion and table hosting.  It didn’t host PinMAME, ROMS or Visual Pinball.  It wasn’t until VPF decided that they were going to take it upon themselves to take ownership of everything Visual Pinball once it went OS.

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[Dazz]

Ok, so, now I’ve gone even further and removed the membership tiers completely from VPU.  Users can Support VPU for other benefits, however default members have had a major increase in download speed as well as a decrease in the download timelimit.

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[Scotty VH]

I don’t have much skin in this game, but it occurs to me that there are a few things that will drive or deter community engagement.  There are:

1 – the amount and quality of content

2 – the cost of said content

3 – freedom of information (i.e. being able to talk about stuff, mention other websites, link to them, etc.)

4 – usability (including download delays, limits on searches, limits on downloads, and general user experience).

Vpinball.com seems to be well positioned on all of these. so it’s not surprising to see its success.  With that said, all the websites are great, and all serve unique purposes and fill specific gaps.  The whole ecosystem is exciting to me, and I don’t mind checking multiple sites (even in multiple languages) to keep a pulse on what’s going on.

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[ICPjuggla]

I find it very strange you need to bring up a top like this on someone else’s sight! It seems to me you see vpinball.com as a threat and your begging for members to come back to your sight to line your pockets.. In my eyes, I feel like it’s a really low blow and a low class move but I guess that’s what I’d expect from VPU. After all you promote VPCabs which sells machines fully loaded with authors tables in them. I can’t speak for ever author but I’m sure the majority will agree that puts a bad tast in our mouth!

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[randr]

Icpjuggla has a good point dazz. Your site seems to think its ok that vpcabs sells cabs fully loaded. I think that is probably the worse thing a COMMERCIALLY ran company can do. Every site should NOT support that practice!

********************************************************
Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
for IOS and Android

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[blisse]

Another thing, personally I find it funny that people build and sink hundreds/thousands of dollars into building a nice cabinet, but they can’t help support the people that make these communities.

I’m more than happy to give couple bucks for the people who maintains the sites and would gladly buy a beer to table author for a new table. But the thing is that I want to do it on my terms and not because it’s mandatory. If there would be a donate button here at vpinball.com I would definitely chip in 10 or 20$ a year. So what I’m trying to say is that when you give people a choice to show their support instead of forcing it it might come more easily :)

 

EDIT

OK, I only read the first page before commenting and didn’t know there already was some changes on this – good stuff. But still, I would rather make anonymous donation instead of buying a fixed amount for a badge.

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[freneticamnesic]

Honestly dazz, it felt like you gave up on it a while back. There was the joking about shutting down, then the config tool going up and down, the chat having issues all the time, things like that made it seem like you weren’t too interested in it. It’s certainly acceptable but no one was there to back you up when things broke, so it made it hard to stick around. It felt like things there stagnated anyways now that everything that can be released has been released – though hopefully that’s about to change with the incredible stuff DJRobX has done with LE emulation! It’s hard for me as an author to maintain uploads everywhere as well so having a place like VPB that has let me do everything I’ve wanted to do and feel I have a voice in maintaining, it’s been good! But really my biggest peeve was the download speeds and everything you did to throttle it for people who weren’t paying, it started to feel like mini-VPF and it was bumming me out. I’ve been a big fan of what you built but that was a huge disappointment. I mentioned it but don’t think the discussion gained traction so I didn’t pursue it. I didn’t want to seek out drama in the one remaining place (at the time) that I didn’t already feel divisive against. I’m glad you’ve changed that and I hope you’re back into it. The site does look good too, now VPF really does look dated lol

Punch it!

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[roar]

I can appreciate not being a content provider my thoughts don’t hold the weight that the contributors does but I’ll echo other’s thoughts for what it’s worth:

1. freneticamnesic hit the nail on the head for me. VPU felt abandoned. With all the stale content on the home page and the lions share of all the sub-forums with no new content in years (VPF suffers from stale content too). Personally I’d clean up/shut down all the sub-forums that don’t have new posts in the last year.

2. I understand the costs of hosting a website all too well, but 60 seconds to download a file is a very poor user experience. I don’t know what your budget for the site is but 2.5TB’s a month on a CDN should be in the $100 range, not sure what you’re paying from your provider if you’re not using a CDN or if $100 a month is not in the budget.

3. I’d rather go to github to get my VPM and VPX, searching threads for the latest link is a poor user experience.

4. I like vpinball for the lack of drama… this thread is the most drama I’ve seen here.

5. I wish Tom wouldn’t have left… my Italian is poor and I can’t seem to work the monsterbash forums into my normal surfing routine!

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[Josh]

Scotty VH wrote:

I don’t have much skin in this game, but it occurs to me that there are a few things that will drive or deter community engagement. There are: 1 – the amount and quality of content 2 – the cost of said content 3 – freedom of information (i.e. being able to talk about stuff, mention other websites, link to them, etc.) 4 –tw usability (including download delays, limits on searches, limits on downloads, and general user experience). Vpinball.com seems to be well positioned on all of these. so it’s not surprising to see its success. With that said, all the websites are great, and all serve unique purposes and fill specific gaps. The whole ecosystem is exciting to me, and I don’t mind checking multiple sites (even in multiple languages) to keep a pulse on what’s going on.

I think Scott hit all the reason I frequent Vpinball regularly.  I think I stopped going to vpuniverse as much when I didn’t see as many VPX tables being released along with being re-routed to a porn site every other time I visited the site.  RandR does a wonderful job making this feel like a community.  I know that in the last couple of weeks RandR decided to give the main contributors to this site t-shirts and mugs.  I am not a significant contributor so it didn’t affect me, but it was a class move none the less.  The reason I started coming here was Jason helped me get my machine up and running literally spent hours helping me and asked nothing in return.  I have nothing against VPU I really don’t but I definitely have found a home here.

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[Dazz]

ICPjuggla wrote:

I find it very strange you need to bring up a top like this on someone else’s sight! It seems to me you see vpinball.com as a threat and your begging for members to come back to your sight to line your pockets.. In my eyes, I feel like it’s a really low blow and a low class move but I guess that’s what I’d expect from VPU. After all you promote VPCabs which sells machines fully loaded with authors tables in them. I can’t speak for ever author but I’m sure the majority will agree that puts a bad tast in our mouth!

I’m not here to beg for members to come back and I don’t see it as a threat.  Neither of our sites can really compete with VPF.  I’m here to sincerely see what’s wrong with the community and to get feedback to help get things on track. We are all here for a common interest and to better our hobby.  VPU was initially created to be a cabinet specific version of VPF and we wanted to work directly with VPF, not against them. However, their owner has issues with anything that he can’t control. Allowing their community leader to continue thinking that they own everything Visual Pinball/PinMAME related is going to ruin what the VPF community is all about.

You say you don’t support VPU because of VPCabs banner on the site?  VPins, owned by Paul aka Noah the owner of VPF, do include community created software and games. VPF is membership based and has been for YEARS, limits free user downloads to 5 per day and greatly hinders download speeds. People have no problem at all with this and they continue to support VPF.  Even then VPF only allows VPIN banners/products on their site and does not allow anyone to put up a banner with a competing product. You don’t have an issue with this? VPF is a great resource and the community itself is great, but I don’t trust Paul as a community leader because he does use/abuse his community for personal gain.  This is very clear, but it doesn’t seem to be a big deal. I voiced my opinion about this and was banned from VPF.  

I don’t give a flying F*** about donations… nothing goes to me.  Period.  I duplicated the VPF membership system to be a bit more lenient on VPU, as it seems to be OK with the community, but I was wrong and trying to fix it. I wish something was lining my pocket, but I’m out mowing lawns and busting my ass 12-14 hours per day since I was laid off. Everything I have ever received, which is very far and few between, has gone directly back into the site and server. If necessary I can provide and account for every single receipt and every single cent that VPU has ever received, which isn’t much to begin with. VPU isn’t running some free and easily hackable system.  A decent secure system with secure and fast server requires financial support.  Hell, the initial startup of VPU was roughly $450, which I have just recently surpassed in donations/membership. If I didn’t have to do it then I wouldn’t, but it does become a necessity.

About VPCabs… I put up a VPCabs banner only because they were active members of the community with a product to sell. Again, I get/got nothing in return for putting any of the banners on the site. I have no issue in putting up a banner to support members of our community. I’d rather have member ads, with something related to the hobby, than something like the Google ads where they have nothing to do with it.  There have only been accusations that VPCabs are including software that they shouldn’t be. I have/had no proof, nor can anyone provide proof, that they are/were indeed including anything community created on their cabinets other than PinballFX (which costs them a fortune for licensing).  Now with VPCabs having a serious financial backer, from the Shark Tank deal, that knows his licensing and the legalities behind it… VPCabs *should* be running well within legal bounds. Until I can get verification as to what is included on their machines, I’ve removed their banner.

VPU has always been about doing what the community needs and I’ve relied on community input.  It is just as much everyone else site as it is mine. I’m just trying to bring back the community aspect of our hobby that we once had with the original VPForums. If it’s not what the community wants then why should I even continue to try?

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[freneticamnesic]

Wait damn did you want feedback or not lol

Punch it!

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