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Hi everyone my name is Dave and I am one of the commercial machine builders. I am writing this post to apologise for any offence caused by my actions. I design and build arcade and virtual pinball machines. I want to make it clear that I will not supply content from vpinball.com on any of my machines.
I have received both respectful negative comments from the community and some pretty awful threats today. Many of you would argue that I have bought this on myself – fair point. It has never been my intention to damage the community or offend any individual so I apologise openly here.
Many of my youtube videos feature me playing tables or giving a very unpolished review. Ive been advised that this makes it look like I am advertising the table in question, which i am not, however I can understand how that looks. I have tried to credit authors where possible recently but clearly for many of you this is not going far enough so i will have to have a long hard think about that. What I would say is that most of the videos I make get around 500-1000 views (there have been a few vids with more but most are around this number). Even so i will have a think about how I can avoid any confusion.
I was one of the financial donors to the Flintstones project and I will always, where I can, try and support the community that has given me so much. I know for most people reading this that will mean nothing, but I am just trying to say that I am supportive of projects like this that require funding and i would be happy to do this again in the future.
I realise that this post will most likely now receive a whole host of crappy comments about me being the worst human being that ever played pinball, about how pinball builders are all ass holes and that I should burn in hell. Thats all fine, i can take it. All I ask is that if you were one of the people who hurled some pretty foul abuse at me on the facebook messenger or one of the people who contacted a family member directly and told her what you think of me then please stop – thats not acceptable. If you want to call me a shit head here, go for it.
On a final note I want to say that I am honestly a nice guy who loves pinball and loves making pinball machines. I bring this fantastic world of virtual pinball to people who dont have the necessary skills or time to build their own machine. I put a lot of thought and effort in to building virtual pins and I love doing it very much, yes I get paid to do that, its how i feed my family. In addition I provide ongoing support to those people through Teamviewer when they delete stuff or windows does an update and something stops working. The people who buy cabinets from me are generally people who could not build a machine themselves, who cannot work a computer, who know nothing about graphics cards etc. Having said all of that though I realise that many of the community members will still think i am scum bag. Im not writing this to try and change your opinion of me, I m sure if you thought I was a arse hole yesterday you’ll think Im an arse hole tomorrow. But I have said i would apologise publicly if I have offended any of the table authors or content providers and I would confirm i will not supply content on Vpinball.com
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@foneservice thank you for posting and the apology. You seem like a great guy that builds some nice cabs! thanks for posting and i think we can all just move on and everyone will be happy.
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Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
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It’s a good stance and there’s no reason not to accept your apology.
I think the only reason anyone gives cab builders a bad rap is because there have been so many instances of selling cabs with content that is developed under the sincere desire for it to remain non-commercial. That betrayal can only diminish the amount of new projects which of course will hurt the hobby as well as the market for well-built cabinets.
Thanks for considering the situation and chiming in here. Always happy to be working with all parts of the community instead of against.
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Well, I just read some very interesting…and well written stuff here. Interesting day indeed.
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I appreciate the fact that you openly reached out to the community. Â I know there are a lot of people doing the same kind of business here in the US and they probably would not have the courage to do the same.
There is absolutely no reason to EVER contact or reference anyone’s family members.  This is and shall remain a civil and friendly environment and I expect the same individuals that did wrong to you to reach out and do the right thing.  Hopefully we can all come to a an acceptable understanding because I do believe that done right, your business can bring valuable members to the community.
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Good decission to not hide in the shade!
The only negative thing that is left, if we have missunderstood your videos, then a license holder might have too!
Welcome to a great community!
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Reading this now and first i say threaten you or especially your family is a NO GO and thats not how it should be done.
Next to your apology which is in my hones opinon total Bullshit since you still sell pre-loaded cabs you still advertise with software inlcuded and your app which downloads all files etc
if you really wants to sell with software (LIKE EVERY COMMERCIAL GUY SHOULD) you can contact ZEN studios, pay the fees and include that. And as long you include community made stuff (which youe still do and advertises with) you are still a *******
Or you simply could show your customers how it is done right, show them the Forums, the instructions and so on…..
But this is just my Opinion and it could differ from others
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I came here from FB. Here’s a long rant about it all:
Threats against you or your family are completely unacceptable. Anyone threatening another should be subject to the same bans as loaded cab sellers.
That being said, i have to be honest and say i feel your post is mostly disingenuous. You clearly see yourself as the majority victim here, or at least not responsible for your own actions in some way. Or to put it another way, your saying that you are not trying to change our opinion of you I think is BS and in fact is the only reason you posted here.
1) You mention backing the flintstones. For you to even bring this up as a reason for redemption shows that you aren’t grasping why people have a problem with re-sellers. And before you cry foul, there’s a difference between people chipping in to give the creators of a table something back in return for a table that everyone in the community enjoys VS the low investment, high reward of loading a machine up with tables to sell to a single customer for a profit. Reading that you chipped in some of your profit to the flintstone authors does sound like you recognise some level of guilt internally. Or it’s ammo for your redemption in the eyes of the community… I have a suspicion that some of the creators would have mixed feelings about taking your money or maybe would prefer you didn’t contribute.
2) Comments are part of the internet. You are putting yourself in a public forum as a BUSINESS. Again, any personal attacks on you are completely unacceptable but you should have to answer to the community here as a business.
3) The correct approach to loading games/software is to individually seek approval in writing for ANYTHING you bundle in your machines that doesn’t have an open and free to use for commercial projects licence. Not just vpin software. This is how you operate a legitimate business. See vpin-shop.com and others for examples of people doing this the right way, taking the effort to go and obtain a licence to bundle FX3, etc.
4) For you to say that you are not recording youtube videos as advertising, from your business branded account, that clearly promotes in your “about” where to order (but also the fact that you employ marketing tactics such as branding, logos, demonstrating the project) is complete bollocks and one of the major red flags of your entire post from where I sit. You know exactly what you are doing here or it would be on a personal youtube account.
5) The original authors often are using IP that is not their own. This is in a remix / fan setting so it’s probably fine under fair use but might NOT be when sold. So if someone goes out and creates a table that uses an existing IP (stranger things etc) which is intended as a fan only thing and then you not only start selling that but also now starting to “credit the author” this actually makes matters worse and it’s more likely that people won’t share a creation since you are now changing the intended audience and without the creator being able to do anything about it. I am planning on getting into the original game space myself so it’s somthing that I have given some thought on… also the creator of stranger things has mentioned this exposure as a concern numerous times in posts previously.
6) Just because you find something enjoyable, such as cab building, doesn’t give you a diplomatic immunity to do it for a living (unfortunately). Or none of us would have real jobs.
With all that being said, prove your words with actions because at the moment it sounds like you are still trying to play the sympathy card, being completely honest. You should stop selling pre-loaded games where you don’t have permission to do so and remove the “update app” if you want to remain in good standing with the community. Period.
I know that “everyone does it” in the MAME cabinet selling world and that the VPIN scene is way more harsh on these beliefs but this is a debate on ethics. And also its not the same thing as these are individual projects that took months and years sometimes to complete. Individual’s hard work that is being completely disrespected for profit.
I just want to end saying again, 2 wrongs don’t make a right and if you did indeed receive personal insults you should refer them to the proper channels (these people should also be banned from groups / sites).
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I should have daone a better research before answering!
I take back what i said above! You still have to proove something my friend! It’s either you who corrects the problem or it might be a license holder who’s ending all of this! What are you going to sell if all the VP places are shut down? ZEN-Tables when it’s already too late?
Thanks Bambi!
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There is a big point there. There are two aspects of your business that are fine: the cabinet building itself, and offering people support to help them getting their own install of VPX actually running from nothing. Actually providing the machine with VPX and tables already installed is a no-no. There is some tolerance for building a cabinet for your own use, then winding up selling that to someone else while you build your next personal cabinet, but basically that’s maybe one cabinet a year at the most. And a big part of it is as noted that a lot of what’s been released are meant to be consumed as fan art, ESPECIALLY if the table involves the intellectual property of others, like ScottyWic’s Stranger Things and Harry Potter tables do.
While the threats to your family are unacceptable to many of us, be aware that for all of us involved, if an IP holder decides someone’s gone too far with this hobby, if we’re all lucky, they’ll just go after you and you alone and start and end with a cease and desist letter. Of course, the other end of the response spectrum here is they decide to go straight to a lawsuit with you, and also any and all sites involved with releasing tables that infringe, with a non-negotiable “you will hand over your forum/product/website and domain names and not open another” clause in the settlements, with the intent of “choking off the supply,” and it would basically stick as any lawyer would say, “take it as they can take everything you have and put you in deep debt if this goes to court right now.” And if you ask, yes, they are likely already fully aware of any and all players in the space.
Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.You need to login in order to like this post: click here
@foneservice if you are still including vp software, b2s server, vpinmame or any tables from this site I will put the region block back up.
To anyone reading this I will need proof Dave is not following this sites rules.
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Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
for IOS and Android********************************************************
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Unfortunately we all know that there are more. Â I looked on eBay and in the first three listings I found this joker…
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233220629678
Makes me sick to read this crap, not for us but for the ignorant customers that don’t know any better
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Hi there, missed some of the brouhaha, damn that thing we call life.
DaveyBoy: Â I appreciate the effort in your apology. Â However where I have issue, it’s with the specific reference to vpinball.com in your apology. Â This would mean you are planning not to use content from vpinball.com, but possibly from other sites since only this site is specified.
from my understanding, no vp/fp related sites have given permission, nor will they give permission, so if your intent is to keep doing business as you were but using the other sites as a feed, well, that’s not gonna work.
feel free to keep making pincabs, there is absolutely a market there for you. Â However don’t use community made art assets on them and don’t post tables/roms/media without consent. Â It’s actually pretty simple.
good luck with your endeavours
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With all the thousands of members here we have to have some lawyers here that can call eBay and put them on notice. I can’t think that eBay would continue to allow it and accept any legal action
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Ok 10 das later and he still advertise with included TablesÂ
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Don’t say sorry then continue to offend.
While I’m sure everyone appreciates the effort and sentiment, you’re still selling cabinets with tables bundled.
Selling any commercial product with game roms is illegal.
You don’t own the visual pinball software or any of the ‘fan-art’ tables created by the community.
Yes people get sensitive when ever someone is trying to make money off the hobby we all work hard on for free.
Sell your cabinets, and point people in the direction of sites but don’t include any tables/roms. I think you’re okay to have the software pre-configured for them but you can’t have any tables or roms pre-loaded.
I understand this isn’t the most user friendly situation for ‘customers’ but honestly they can all go play pinballFX or some other commercial product instead then if they don’t want to put some time and effort into sorting them selves out within this community and enjoy the tables.
Respect these points and you shouldn’t have issue.
While it’s unfortunate you have received threats and nasty comments I have little sympathy for people trying to make money off this hobby especially when it starts to endanger the hobby as a whole. All it would take is for some red flags to be raised because someone is making too much money off IP’s they don’t own and it could all come crashing down.
I’m of the opinion no one should really be making money off this hobby, at least on the software end, crowd funding tables is a bit of a gray area for me. I don’t necessarily like the idea of it, people getting paid to make tables or do artwork or what ever for these projects can potentially yield faster and better results from people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested in investing their time and resources.
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I came here from FB. Here’s a long rant about it all:
Threats against you or your family are completely unacceptable. Anyone threatening another should be subject to the same bans as loaded cab sellers.
That being said, i have to be honest and say i feel your post is mostly disingenuous. You clearly see yourself as the majority victim here, or at least not responsible for your own actions in some way. Or to put it another way, your saying that you are not trying to change our opinion of you I think is BS and in fact is the only reason you posted here.
1) You mention backing the flintstones. For you to even bring this up as a reason for redemption shows that you aren’t grasping why people have a problem with re-sellers. And before you cry foul, there’s a difference between people chipping in to give the creators of a table something back in return for a table that everyone in the community enjoys VS the low investment, high reward of loading a machine up with tables to sell to a single customer for a profit. Reading that you chipped in some of your profit to the flintstone authors does sound like you recognise some level of guilt internally. Or it’s ammo for your redemption in the eyes of the community… I have a suspicion that some of the creators would have mixed feelings about taking your money or maybe would prefer you didn’t contribute.
2) Comments are part of the internet. You are putting yourself in a public forum as a BUSINESS. Again, any personal attacks on you are completely unacceptable but you should have to answer to the community here as a business.
3) The correct approach to loading games/software is to individually seek approval in writing for ANYTHING you bundle in your machines that doesn’t have an open and free to use for commercial projects licence. Not just vpin software. This is how you operate a legitimate business. See vpin-shop.com and others for examples of people doing this the right way, taking the effort to go and obtain a licence to bundle FX3, etc.
4) For you to say that you are not recording youtube videos as advertising, from your business branded account, that clearly promotes in your “about” where to order (but also the fact that you employ marketing tactics such as branding, logos, demonstrating the project) is complete bollocks and one of the major red flags of your entire post from where I sit. You know exactly what you are doing here or it would be on a personal youtube account.
5) The original authors often are using IP that is not their own. This is in a remix / fan setting so it’s probably fine under fair use but might NOT be when sold. So if someone goes out and creates a table that uses an existing IP (stranger things etc) which is intended as a fan only thing and then you not only start selling that but also now starting to “credit the author” this actually makes matters worse and it’s more likely that people won’t share a creation since you are now changing the intended audience and without the creator being able to do anything about it. I am planning on getting into the original game space myself so it’s somthing that I have given some thought on… also the creator of stranger things has mentioned this exposure as a concern numerous times in posts previously.
6) Just because you find something enjoyable, such as cab building, doesn’t give you a diplomatic immunity to do it for a living (unfortunately). Or none of us would have real jobs.
With all that being said, prove your words with actions because at the moment it sounds like you are still trying to play the sympathy card, being completely honest. You should stop selling pre-loaded games where you don’t have permission to do so and remove the “update app” if you want to remain in good standing with the community. Period.
I know that “everyone does it” in the MAME cabinet selling world and that the VPIN scene is way more harsh on these beliefs but this is a debate on ethics. And also its not the same thing as these are individual projects that took months and years sometimes to complete. Individual’s hard work that is being completely disrespected for profit.
I just want to end saying again, 2 wrongs don’t make a right and if you did indeed receive personal insults you should refer them to the proper channels (these people should also be banned from groups / sites).
This sums up all major points quite effectively, a good analysis if I say so myself.
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