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  • #138558
     -=Dozer=- 
    Participant

    Greetings,

    I’ve received a few messages over the last couple of days regarding my decision to pull my tables from vpinball.com and in light of discovering that Randr has been receiving some flack for the wrong reasons, I thought I’d post an update to clear things up.

    My tables have been pulled because of people bundling them with cabinets, not because Australia was recently geo-blocked.

    To the people who intend to play digital pinball in a personal setting and didn’t get the chance to download them, I apologise.

    For me personally, the desire to contribute to the visual pinball community was carried forward in the spirit of which I initially benefited from it way back when I first stumbled across it.   A free and open community of makers sharing ideas and skills that allow something we’re all very nostalgic about to re-experienced in a digital form but lately I’ve noticed that things are becoming increasingly more commercialised.

    There have been many arguments over the years about the morality of this hobby and whether in fact, authors have any say in what happens to their recreations as we’re using designs, art and code created by others before us and some of these arguments are certainly worthy of discussion.  The digital age has presented some unique situations, pinball makers couldn’t have foreseen the mechanical devices they were making ending up as pixels on a GPU but so far, they seem to have been tolerant of us doing it as long as we don’t exploit it commercially.   Whatever your view on it, the general grind of devoting hundreds of hours worth of work to create a decent VP table has always been offset by knowing that the community was going to enjoy it, enhance it, learn from it where there was something to learn etc. and hopefully give something back.  Knowing that what I’ve made is generating someone else revenue isn’t tenable – it’s one or the other, you either carry the community forward in the same way you’ve benefited from it or you make and ship your own work.

    Randr has been good enough to allow us to control our own content on this site which is testament to his desire to build a great makers community, if it was possible I’d be pulling my stuff from other sites that don’t allow it as well.

    So there you have it, if you think I’m being a whiney little bitch, then fair power to you, that’s your call and I’ll respect it – to everyone else who has shared their work over the years which I’ve learned from or simply played – many thanks, it’s been quite the ride.

    Dozer/
     

    #138563
     bord 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    A thoughtful farewell from one of my favorite innovators. Your work with VP flashers in particular is super inspired.

    I’m not far behind you in sentiment. It is hard to put 100s of hours into a project that is going to profit someone else or that another site admin is going to treat like he owns and is owed. The contributor/leech ratio in this hobby is abysmal and with your post it just got worse.

    The fun of the hobby is creation, discovery, and community. Thanks for all the ways you’ve made things better around here.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  bord. Reason: typo
    #138566
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    Agree with what bord said 100% thanks Dozer for all your contributions.

    I may also be calling it quits for the same reasons and then VPF and the rest of the cabinet/content sellers can sell everything they want as most people don’t seem to care anyways.

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
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    #138567
     Drybonz 
    Participant
    Member

    Could be the end of an era.  It was fun while it lasted.

    #138569
     bord 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    Could be the end of an era.  It was fun while it lasted.

    Certainly was. But the need for money or power will always tear people apart in the end. It’s the story of all recorded human history.

    Thankfully we can all strive as best we can to not be on the destructive side.

    #138571
     Schreibi34 
    Participant
    Member

    Not really motivated the last couple of weeks. But i’m here helping others who still are. Quitting all of this feels like loosing and i don’t like loosing against a handfull of money making A-Holes! Not only the cab makers make me sick! 1500 downloads and 60 “Thanks” tell a story. Jeez, it’s just a press of a button before th DL! Like randr said, a lot of people don’t seem to care. When i think how often i stressed myself trying to finish a table and that it sometimes even affected my social life, what a shame.

    The only thing that keeps me at least a little motivated is the fact that i want to give the good guys something back.

    6 users thanked author for this post.
    #138572
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    Could be the end of an era.  It was fun while it lasted.

    Certainly was. But the need for money or power will always tear people apart in the end. It’s the story of all recorded human history.

    Thankfully we can all strive as best we can to not be on the destructive side.

    Well said bord. That’s exactly what keeps me motivated! I feel this is the good side and I know that there will always be people stealing content and trying to make a quick buck or even making a living of others work! It’s even got so bad I can’t watch a YouTube video of my own table build being played without monitized ads! Or the you tube person asking for donations! Wtf! Sorry but are people that desperate? I have never expected a penny from this hobby and certainly woulnt monitize my YouTube channel.

    That said I certainly don’t have a problem with authors asking for donations but as I’ve always said I won’t add that option to site! All that can be done in a pm or email directly or even in table info if author wants. I just won’t “make a way” for it to be done.

     

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    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
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    #138573
     Badazzwi 
    Participant
    Member

    Unfortunately greed runs the world. People will do anything to make a buck including selling others hard work.

    Thank you for your contributions Dozer. I can assure you all your creations that I have on my cab will remain there for  only me, my friends and my family to enjoy.

    Hi my name is Barry and I'm a virtual pinball addict.

    #138574
     CarnyPriest 
    Participant
    Member

    I think of the community as a concerted effort, an ongoing research and documentation project to preserve a slice of history. Even if you question the concept of authorship/ownership of work based on corporate IP, good research practice requires citing sources. Not citing sources is plagiarism even if you believe that the work cannot be “owned” by an author. In this situation, plagiarism may not be a crime or a civil offense but it is still intellectual dishonesty.

    I know casual users don’t care, but I don’t serve that group. Being able to play the tables is pretty much just a happy by-product of the effort of preservation.

    Thanks to @dozer for granting me permission to use some of his resources in work that I have published over the years.

     

    #138575
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    I think of the community as a concerted effort, an ongoing research and documentation project to preserve a slice of history. Even if you question the concept of authorship/ownership of work based on corporate IP, good research practice requires citing sources. Not citing sources is plagiarism even if you believe that the work cannot be “owned” by an author. In this situation, plagiarism may not be a crime or a civil offense but it is still intellectual dishonesty.

    I know casual users don’t care, but I don’t serve that group. Being able to play the tables is pretty much just a happy by-product of the effort of preservation.

    Thanks to @dozer for granting me permission to use some of his resources in work that I have published over the years.

     

    Again well said and @dozer thank you for everything.

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    *******************************************************

    #138579
     DeathInc 
    Participant

    I have only been a member here for a short time. I found out about the community and seen a V Pinball cabinet about two years ago. Had to have one after years of MAME machines. It is just flat out awsome. I love it.  Thank you to all the hard work that went into making these awsome tables.

    But, if you quit. You LOSE. This has been going on for years in the MAME community. Selling for money. Don’t let that take away your enjoyment from doing what you love. What others love. Their will always be assholes. Everywhere!!! But don’t let it change who you are and what this site has become. Please!!

    I don’t have the skills to do what you guys do. Maybe never will. But I have tried to contribute what I can. Stupid wheels. It’s all I can do right now.

    Please reconsider. You are not hurting the assholes who are making the profit off of your work. You are hurting the everyday Joe’s who loves this community. And love your tables.

    It’s just my opinion.  Their has to be other options. Maybe a members only site. Something…….anything.

    Again, thank you for all your hours on your tables. You bring alot of good people joy.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  DeathInc.
    #138580
     roccodimarco 
    Participant
    Member

    Nice to see you’re still around Dozer.  I was looking forward to your TX Sector, but you have your reasons and I agree with you.  When I was at pinfest this year, there were so many “vendors” selling virtual pinball cabs, pre loaded with games.  A few of the games included had tables that I personally worked on, and I felt cheated in a weird way.  Not to mention, almost every cab was underpowered, the settings were incorrect,  and you could tell it was all a quick money grab.

    I felt bad for a few people.  First, everyone in this community who do this for enjoyment, the hobby and to share their work with everyone free of charge.  These “sellers” just bulk download and toss on a cab with little to no thought.  They dont appreciate any of the work done, all they see is money.   I also feel bad for the people who are buying these cabs.  They are completely clueless as to what’s happening.  For all they know, the “vendor” they are buying from “created” all these tables.  Not to mention, because they are setup so poorly, there is a 99% chance, that these people spending an arm and a leg on these cabinets, are going to run into major problems in the near future, and you know who ends up having to help them?  All of us.

    It’s very frustrating to see how quickly things have been turning sour these past few years.  I’m glad to be apart of the community and I just want to thank you guys for the work you put in, the enjoyment you have and continue to bring me and my buddies, and I hope we can push through together.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  roccodimarco.
    #138583
     wrd1972 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    Dozer,

    I really hate to see this as well. And I totally understand why you would want to step away. Your work is/was among the best out there.

    At the end of the day, all of the authors need to decide if its worth it, to continue producing tables. Yes there are d’bags out there profiting, from our work, and that’s not going to end. I really hope this does not become a trend. But again, I understand why it could become a trend.

    I can only speak for myself. But I still enjoy producing tables and sharing them with the community, much more than I hate the before mentioned d’bags, and the the tricks they are pulling. I also prefer to not go investigating to possibly see where our tables might be getting used, as someone else’s cash cow. I wonder how profitable that cash cow really is anyway? Maybe ignorance is bliss in my case.

    Thanks again for you excellent contributions. :good:

     

     

    My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: Dell T3400 workstation with Core2 Quad core 3.0GHZ (Q9650) CPU - 8GB of RAM - Nvidia 760GTX (MSI Twin Frozr)

    40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, 22" upper and 19" lower monitors in the backbox - Virtuapin controller w/ analog plunger - Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support

    #138588
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Sorry to see you go Dozer and sorry to see your content pulled from the site.  I appreciate all the work you’ve done as well as that of many others before you that made such great contributions and moved on to other things.

    Personally, I do this because I love it.  I don’t care about the recognition and I’m just happy to share.  I could care less how people get my tables/work … the more that are able to enjoy, the better.  It’s fun to check download numbers, thanks, and likes, but I don’t need them to enjoy or feel good about what I do.

    I don’t want this hobby put at risk, but then again, if I were to walk away, it wouldn’t matter.  There have always been people bundling and selling these tables.  There always will be.

    I’d love to see a solution where cab builders can build there cabs and make it easy for those that buy them to get the tables they want with the proper recognition to the authors.   Much like Google Play or the App Store.  How would you even market that product without being able to talk about the great tables you can play if you bought a cab?  They are serving a market … all those that would love to play these games that don’t have the time or ability to build a cab.

    Is it possible for us to come up with a reasonable solution since this problem isn’t going away?  It might even benefit those of us that do this on a day-to-day basis.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #138589
     DeathInc 
    Participant

    We do what we do for US. Not them.

    I know I am just a wheel bag, but one time someone said that they were going to switch to the wheels I was making. Made it all worth wile. So I do wheels. Im a wheel bag,

    :)

    #138590
     Wildman 
    Participant
    Member

    Do what you feel you have to do your not the first one to do it  :cry:

    But me personally I gave up on that shit a long time ago cause I thought why should I stop doing something I enjoy doing

    because of some fuckin doushbags ..  The only people that suffer from it are the ones that really enjoy the hobby :yes: the guys stealin our shit dont give 2 fucks if you stop making it or not… Thats why I keep making my BG’s…and yea 1500 dloads and lucky to get 3 thanks make you want to say fuck it.

    but i look at it this way I had 3 guys that really liked my work,,,, just 1 thanks is enough to keep me going :heart:

    80% of my work comes from others posting there pics, if not for that i wouldnt have 5 – 600 BG made for all to enjoy.

    Just saying dont let all the assholes get you down, you enjoy making them we enjoy playing them, Dont let us good guys lose out because of it B-)

    THEY CAN TAKE OUR WORK BUT THEY CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY OUR PASSION AND LOVE FOR PINBALL :good:   ;-)

    6 users thanked author for this post.
    #138593
     DJRobX 
    Moderator
    MemberModerator

    Sorry to see you go!    It’s been great working with you.   Having your Walking Dead LE and Mustang LE tables was the best “thanks” I could possibly get for the hours I put into making them work on the VPM end   I definitely understand how you feel, sometimes it’s just time to move on.

    As for removing your old tables, it makes me sad.  As Wildman says, it mostly only hurts the honest fans you uploaded them for in the first place.  The cabinet makers are still going to find them in those mega torrents hosted on other sites, and removing your tables will probably just strengthen the popularity of those places.    But it’s your work and you certainly should do what you feel is right.

    Cheers, we will miss you.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #138595
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    You all are making a lot of sense with your comments.

    I hope dozer is reading all these like i am as your definitely changing my feelings today about all this and almost making me feel a bit better! ALMOST

     

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    *******************************************************

    #138596
     Gwen 
    Participant
    Member

    Thank you Dozer for the great works you have shared with our little community.  The hobby has greatly benefited from your contributions and it is sad to see them stop.  I certainly understand your reasons and respect them.  As for me I have to say though that the world would be a much less interesting and pleasant place if everyone who worked hard on something they love doing just stopped doing it because of a few people who took advantage of it… my two cents worth…

    Thanks again Dozer!

    Gwen
    - wonky builder of the steampunk-y Nikola Tesla cabinet.

    #138603
     Dark 
    Participant
    vipMemberContributor

    @-=Dozer=-

    You’ve summed up my feelings about my own VP experience/journey quite eloquently.  I’ve only been helping out with a few models here and there, more for myself than anyone because I wanted to see them used in tables I wanted but just in the short time I’ve come out of retirement I’ve found myself getting pissed off left right and center.

    The guys here have a good point, like Wildman saying he does it for the few people who really do appreciate it, and I try to keep telling myself positive points like this but it keeps swirling back around to the same old problems.

    Always thought you were a cool dude and I always liked how you were constantly experimenting and trying new things in VP.  You were one of the best out side of the box thinkers around.  I enjoyed working with you the few times we did, TWD and Mustang both great tables and was honored to help out with them.

    Let’s just call this,

    Good bye for now.

    Take care pal.

    3dcreation

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