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  • #50877
    Dark
    Moderator
    @dark
    vipMemberContributor

    Okay I’ve been seeing a lot of comments in the last while, more so on VPF than here really that compare authors work.  Making comments like this;

    “10/10, really not many tables can even compare to this masterpiece.”

    Or making comments that are along the lines of saying other authors need to step it up to match the new standard of quality or ‘watch out authors the bars just been raised’.

    This is really bothering me lately because I know these comments come out of ignorance mainly by users who only download tables and don’t actually contribute anything,  I know they mean no offence by it.  They might even think they are trying to motivate authors to try harder.

    However I believe comparing authors works does nothing but to serve as an insult to their hard work.  My point is simply that there are plenty of ways to pay a compliment without comparing authors work or indirectly paying insults.  What this really does is diminish’s and undermines the efforts of authors.  To put things in perspective here, imagine you just spent 6+ months polishing crappy pinball resources and  get it coded up, lit up, and made functional a table for release, you get some thank you’s but then you see comments like the one I posted above in other threads……how would you feel?

    Not everyone has the same skill levels, knowledge or even time, would people rather just have maybe 6 tables come out a year by the same 2-5 authors who are ‘the best’?

    When people start paying authors for their work, then they can be critical of it, but as it is now and as it should be, it’s free and it’s driven by hobbyists not paid professionals.

    I know posting here won’t do much to alleviate the situation with the ‘users’ on VPF and I don’t expect it to, but I figured we could at least exercise good etiquette here(VPB).

    Thanks for your time.

    3dcreation

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #50883
    Sliderpoint
    Participant
    @sliderpoint
    MemberContributor

    10/10!  Best post EVER!!  ;-)

    #50888
    Zulu
    Participant
    @celsoantoniodasilva
    Great observation
    I fully agree
    #50890
    CarnyPriest
    Participant
    @carnypriest
    Member

    Good to get that off of your chest, but a display of enthusiasm is not necessarily or should be read in these cases as a knock on anyone else’s efforts. I rarely see a comment that is, “Oh my god! Y is so much better than X! Why does X even try!”

    Absolutely nothing wrong in comparing authors in the spirit of constructive criticism or pointing to good practice as an example (although I know that is not what you are talking about here) .

    #50898
    Andypc
    Participant
    @andypc
    Member

    There have been some truly amazing tables released in the last couple of months. Possibly better than people expected. I think the comments are trying to express how good thing have become :-) This does not detract from the efforts of any other table builders as I would like to assure you all efforts and tables built are really appreciated. I love some of the old EM builds that have been done recently and while they may not have the wow factor of some of the newer tables, they are a lot of fun to play and have had a lot of effort put into them by the authors.

    Your point about table resources is well made, as I have been trying to help by tracking down some plastics to help finish of a great build, that currently doesn’t look as good as it could simply because good resources were not available to the author.

    I would just like to say a big thank you to everyone that has contributed into making Visual Pinball such a great hobby and experience. :yahoo:

    #50900
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    It’s a great point.  I always try to be very careful when complimenting an author’s work in this regard.  I’m very thankful for everyone’s contributions to this hobby.

    Personally, these types of comments don’t bother me.  I do it for my own enjoyment and I know there are certain aspects of table development that I just can’t keep up with.  I just have to manage my own expectations and set standards that I feel good about.  I’d drive myself crazy if I tried to match the quality of some of the top authors.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #50904
    EarlthePearl
    Participant
    @earlthepearl

    Great idea to be brought up here Dark. I really appreciate the community aspect here of my new favoritest sport. I would be a real disservice for someone who could potentially become great at any aspect of skills needed here quit trying if they feel their hard work and attempts at their best is being looked at negatively. In comments online people forget the golden rule of if its not nice or beneficial, keep your mouth/keystrokes to yourself. I am mostly a lurker but I have taken a fondness to this particular VPB community because the people here seem to put more consideration behind their post.

    We all have different lines in the sand on what we find offensive or constructive when it comes to critisims but just making sure we are being cognisant on here will go along way to keeping this the best little pinball community on the web. THANK YOU VPB!

    …. off to go get VPX Diner now that I see it’s official! :yahoo:

    #50905
    Dark
    Moderator
    @dark
    vipMemberContributor

    Good to get that off of your chest, but a display of enthusiasm is not necessarily or should be read in these cases as a knock on anyone else’s efforts. I rarely see a comment that is, “Oh my god! Y is so much better than X! Why does X even try!” Absolutely nothing wrong in comparing authors in the spirit of constructive criticism or pointing to good practice as an example (although I know that is not what you are talking about here) .

    Constructive criticism offers advice or solutions to improve on the points presented in the critique,  this is not the case with the types of comments I’m referring to.

    [edit] I suppose I should mention that I’m not personally hurt by these comments, it’s just the nature of them that I find offensive.

    3dcreation

    #50912
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    I suppose I should mention that I’m not personally hurt by these comments, it’s just the nature of them that I find offensive.

    Well said.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #50916
    Drybonz
    Participant
    @drybonz
    Member

    I agree… but I don’t think people mean any harm… most of the time I think they are just trying to pay a compliment and don’t realize they may be offending someone.

    #50917
    Knorr
    Participant
    @knorr
    vipContributor

    Thanks Dark for this post! I wondered my self the last weeks about this. I mean, i couldn´t have build any table without the help of other authors which…, on the one side teached me how to do it, and on the otherside they still inspire me to find different ways to do it. And the total of all is the result of the finished table. I started uploading tables because of @freneticamnesic who pushed me to share stuff (yes, i build tables much longer…) and that is the point i want to say and maybe some people will think about this again…

    I make tables for me, my family, my friends……………………………………………..and at the very very least, i share them (and this is only possible because @randr is hosting it).

     

    But this is also a great opportunity to thanks all of the people who help me getting stuff together, i dont want to list all of you up here – you all know who you are and i hope i never forgot one to mention in my tables.

     

    I also enjoy the differences of all the tables, or better… the signature which every author leaves in some kind of way. This is much more entertaining that the garbage from “other virtual pinball stuff” where every table looks and feels the same.

     

    Almost forgot… 6months isn´t really catchy…

    STTNG = 6months/20-30 hours each week (my skill level and …i also cant believe how much work this table was)(and without the playfield work of @ClarkKent)

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #50918
    Dark
    Moderator
    @dark
    vipMemberContributor

    I agree… but I don’t think people mean any harm… most of the time I think they are just trying to pay a compliment and don’t realize they may be offending someone.

    Yes I mention that I realise it’s done out of ignorance and of no real ill intent.

    Thanks Dark for this post! I wondered my self the last weeks about this. I mean, i couldn´t have build any table without the help of other authors which…, on the one side teached me how to do it, and on the otherside they still inspire me to find different ways to do it. And the total of all is the result of the finished table. I started uploading tables because of @freneticamnesic who pushed me to share stuff (yes, i build tables much longer…) and that is the point i want to say and maybe some people will think about this again… I make tables for me, my family, my friends……………………………………………..and at the very very least, i share them (and this is only possible because @randr is hosting it). But this is also a great opportunity to thanks all of the people who help me getting stuff together, i dont want to list all of you up here – you all know who you are and i hope i never forgot one to mention in my tables. I also enjoy the differences of all the tables, or better… the signature which every author leaves in some kind of way. This is much more entertaining that the garbage from “other virtual pinball stuff” where every table looks and feels the same. Almost forgot… 6months isn´t really catchy… STTNG = 6months/20-30 hours each week (my skill level and …i also cant believe how much work this table was)(and without the playfield work of @clarkkent)

    Knorr you did an amazing job, the hard work really shows, really appreciate you sharing.

    3dcreation

    #50926
    Al
    Participant
    @alandee
    Member

    @Dark I think the essence of what you are saying is correct. A direct comparison of tables from a single viewpoint that is often flawed or biased by experience and has little constructive value. I personally love that tables play differently, and look differently, it’s what makes each author / teams work unique, and there are a good dozen or more individuals and teams ( that I just listed and deleted for fear of forgetting someone ! ) that are very distinctive, along with a heap of occasional releasers that do an absolutely stunning job, and they are all constantly improving on their initial releases, or pushing the boundaries of what vpx can do, or taking on some of the more challenging builds to the benefit of all of us.

    I think looking forward to a release is some of the best part of being in the community for those of us that don’t have the skills to contribute. I think I stopped suggesting a table was the “best table” after downloading like 2 tables and then realised even the most basic of tables, the forgotten or often overlooked, are sometimes an absolute dream to play, which is reflected on my cab by the amount they get played. But, I don’t think having someone say the bar has been raised is a dis, in some cases the bar is actually raised in terms of realism, playability, or spectacular graphics or other nuances that capture the true essence of a table. Taken outside of a comparison it can be very constructive. For instance “table x is one of the most realistic and playable tables I have come across” should be great praise, but “table x plays so much better than table y” is not useful and hurtful to the monumental efforts behind the scenes, and a slap in the face for those that ultimately choose to share their sweat and in my limited attempts, cursing and tears ! ( but to be honest, I don’t see those sorts of comments around here, and I think if they were posted here we are tribe enough to unite against them. )

    As a counterpoint, every table is worthy of praise, the efforts that go into them are spectacular, and for some starting out the individual hours invested are as immense as a whole team that is well polished, so it’s the efforts behind bringing a table to the community that blows me away ( hence my love of the humble wip ) the end result is always excellent, and every dev should be proud of their tables as I think every table these days is brilliant, some though, are spectacular, and every player, developer, leech and other, can recognise a “masterpiece”. ( the local art community is a perfect example, there are some talented sculptors amongst them, I enjoy many of their pieces, and have some to enjoy on a daily basis, and all of them enjoy doing what they do, but we will all go to a Rodin exhibition if it is on .. because  .. well you get the picture. )

    Just my 2c

    Cheers,

    al.

     

     

    #50947
    randr
    Keymaster
    @randr
    ModeratorMember

    Great topic actually.

    I can appreciate every build for what it is honestly. The amount of work put into even a simple build is A LOT of work! This community is the best and we do have GREAT authors building tables, doing artwork, redraws or whatever and honestly it BLOWS ME AWAY at what people can do!

    Thank you to EVERYONE  :good:

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    for IOS and Android

    ********************************************************

    #50948
    TNT2
    Participant
    @tnt2
    Member

    To concur with everyone else I don’t think the vast majority of comments intend any ill will.

    Trolling on the internet can get crazy sometimes but fortunately with the VP community it seems to be at a minimum. Some of it I think stems from playing around in VP. It takes experience and patience to discover how VP works.

    #50951
    roar
    Participant
    @roar
    Member

    I know I’ve been guilty of a little hypberbole when declaring tables the ‘best I’ve seen’ or the ‘table of the year’ but I’m just so darn excited every time I see one of these new creations… I wouldn’t consider my thoughts coming from a place of ignorance as I am pretty aware of all the amazing work being done and I do have some sense of the effort it takes… any comments I make are certainly not a slight to anyones efforts and at the same time aren’t some backhanded suggestion others should try harder, if they’ve been interpreted as such I sincerely apologize. I continue to be grateful to everyones efforts in all corners of this hobby!

    #50953
    TerryRed
    Moderator
    @terryred
    MemberContributorModerator

    Love all the amazing work by ALL authors on all platforms. (VP and FP)  I hope to one day make my own tables.  Virtual Pinball involves almost all aspects of the things I like to do (audio, video, 3d modeling, basic coding, etc).

    The great thing is…. if you don’t like the way a table plays or looks…. no one is stopping you from doing your own thing.

    It may not be the most popular thing amongst VP users, but learning how to mod FP tables for DOFLinx has made me truly admire the amazing work that goes into these tables. I know I have been “changed” when I would rather add code to a table, than play the newest AAA PC Games.

    Really stunning work by many people that has come out… I’m still catching up from the last 10 years…

    #50957
    TXT11
    Participant
    @txt11
    Member

    Of course with the advances in the software, there will be those who feel the latest, greatest VPX version of a table is better than the older VP9 or PM5 version of a table.  There have been many times that I have downloaded a new version of a table and simply deleted it as the older one plays better, sounds cleaner, etc. etc.  I respect all versions/incarnations of tables and backglasses as they are FREE for us to use.  To think that someone has spent countless hours, even days and weeks to recreate these beauties is something we should all be very grateful for. :good:

    #50974
    Dark
    Moderator
    @dark
    vipMemberContributor

    Of course with the advances in the software, there will be those who feel the latest, greatest VPX version of a table is better than the older VP9 or PM5 version of a table. There have been many times that I have downloaded a new version of a table and simply deleted it as the older one plays better, sounds cleaner, etc. etc. I respect all versions/incarnations of tables and backglasses as they are FREE for us to use. To think that someone has spent countless hours, even days and weeks to recreate these beauties is something we should all be very grateful for. :good:

    Well this is what’s great about this hobby, it’s open source and free, once downloaded you can do what ever you like with your tables.  The point of this thread was just to bring a bit of awareness to the situation, I just wanted people to use some consideration when posting comments/compliments.

    As I said previously, I think it’s really more of an issue over at VPF.  As someone else had mentioned earlier, VPB generally seems to have a more considerate and respectful tone over all and I’d just really like to see it stay that way.  I’m an open supporter of this site as I feel randr has made a serious effort to make a safe venue for authors to share their work without having to worry about losing ownership of their stuff once it’s uploaded.  In case you were not aware once you upload content to VPF, it cannot be removed/deleted, so it effectively becomes property of VPF and that’s really just the tip of the ice berg.  I’m not just a supporter of this site because I’m friends with randr (though that doesn’t hurt), I genuinely believe in this site’s mission to support and show case author’s works.  I don’t know how many times I’ve heard randr tell me he thinks authors are what drive this hobby and that they should get all the respect they deserve….and of course he’s made the hobby more accessible for everyone by paying out of his own pocket to ensure everyone had equal access without having to pay for subscriptions.  I don’t necessarily condemn other sites for having subscription packages as I know first hand that decent hosting costs decent coin I just think it shows how much love randr really has for the hobby and the community, which for me is easy to get behind.

    3dcreation

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #50976
    wrd1972
    Participant
    @wrd1972
    MembervipContributor

    ” The point of this thread was just to bring a bit of awareness to the situation, I just wanted people to use some consideration when posting comments/compliments. As I said previously, I think it’s really more of an issue over at VPF.”

     

    Totally agree Dark. I have yet to have someone here tell me one of my tables was unplayable, worst ever and should be sent straight to the recycle bin. :wacko:

    Yes that really happened at VPF with the very first table I ever released…Dr. Dude. I mean I know I was new to this, but Damn! Guess the dude was off his meds or something.

    My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: MSI Micro-ATX Z390m MOBO, Core I5-9600K CPU @ 3.70GHz, 16GB NVRAM, Nvidia 1660 Super,

    40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, Dual 23" monitors in the backbox , Pinscape w. expansion board, Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support

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