This topic contains 27 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  GeorgeH 3 weeks, 2 days ago.

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  • #137771
     LynnInDenver 
    Participant
    Member

    So, if I’m going to put Future Pinball with BAM on my cab Radiant Silverball, I’m going to need some good tables that hold up gameplay-wise against many of the VPX builds. I figure it’s going to be newer table builds (last five years or newer probably), but there’s still a lot to sift through. A couple of quick rules for this:

    No recreations of real tables (I have VPX for that). Recreating layouts is OK as long as the art package is (at least slightly) different and it comes with different and majorly improved rules. DOFLinx is optional; right now the cab only has a few lights under DOF and no other feedback other than what the playfield speakers slam into the rightside cabinet wall (this will change, and I will probably go ahead and install DOFLinx anyway). Modern 2.5+ physics is a bit of a must, see again holding up against VPX, I’m not expecting real-world, but having a slow ball made out of helium that makes Farsight’s The Pinball Arcade feel incredibly realistic (read: original FP physics) isn’t an option.

    So, lay ’em out for me, and I’ll see about getting them and testing for inclusion. :-)

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #137776
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    First and foremost…start with my guide for installing BAM and FP and DOFLinx. I highly suggest going through all of it! You’ll understand so much more and your settings will be correct and save you headaches. Keep in mind FP is 11 years old now (since the last update)!

    https://vpinball.com/forums/topic/how-future-pinball-should-be-setup-for-bam-doflinx-and-pinball-x/

    Even if you aren’t using DOFLinx…installing the DOFLinx.vbs file into your “FuturePinball\scripts” folder will allow all tables with DOFLinx code to work for you.

    https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=35852

     

    After you are completely up to date with with BAM, FP (and DOFLinx.vbs at a minimum) and all setup correctly (it’s important to set everything like I show in the guide)…

     

    Then try out SLAMt1LT’s recent tables at his site. These are using the newer Dynamic Flippers.  See if you like how these play as these would be the most up to date version of those tables you can get and would give you an idea for comparison.

    https://speak1970.wixsite.com/slamspinballemporium

    Also check out his tables in his Youtube channel. Lots of VERY cool looking stuff that are WIP.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/VirtuaPinball/videos

    His tables also include in the script the section for dynamic flippers you could copy and paste into other older tables if you would like to try that out for yourself to play around with (and adjust to your liking). Tables updated for newer Dynamic physics don’t “require” a BAM xml if they include that into the table script. Some do, some don’t… depends on the author.

     

    Then you can get the FP tables on this site that are modded for DOFLinx. They will already have the HUD moved off screen for cabinet play. They are a good selection…but of course their physics will be the older floaty physics.

    https://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/categories/future-pinball-doflinx-tables/

     

    After that…man there are LOADs of FP tables. I agree with you in that ignore most of the arcade recreations (as newer VPX tables are quite good)… except for smoke’s latest tables like ID4 and World Cup Soccer, X-Men,etc. They are much nicer than VPX versions in my opinion. SLAMT1LT’s mods of arcade tables…but the newest version would be on his site at some point. I have some of his Ultimate tables not listed anywhere anymore (like LOTR)…but those would be replaced by his U-Pro versions eventually.

    Goto pinsimdb and do table searches for authors:

    Polygame

    HappyCab

    Francisco666

    smoke

    rom

    SLAMT1LT

    GLXB

    Popotte

    Those are a good start…but there are many many more. Maybe sort by highest downloads. I have up to 170 FP tables on my cabinet…but if I removed the arcade recreations that are better on VPX…that could be cut down to 1/3 less easily.

    you could try out the newer Total Recal

    http://www.pinsimdb.org/pinball/table-24466-total_recall

    and Futurama

    http://www.pinsimdb.org/pinball/table-24458-futurama

    I havent played those much…so I can’t really attest to them.

    Please keep in mind….many of the great FP tables are many years old…so they have not been updated to modern standards, and not using new BAM features which makes a HUGE difference in how they play and look.

     

    Also, if you have a VR headset…then installing BAM Open VR is cool! FP tables in VR (when properly setup) look way better than any other pinball in VR.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  TerryRed.
    #137783
     CarnyPriest 
    Participant
    Member

    FP has been around a long time and an old  release date does not equal “bad”.

    BlindMankind tables are seriously badass. They are what you might call old.

    Anything from Polygame aka HappyCab aka Steve Paradis

    Anything from rom (he was the original author for Jaws).

    Anything from Brendan Bailey, although Javier is well on his way to converting tables to VPX.

    Aliens Legacy (original by David Eisner)

    I find Slamt1lt to be overrated.

    Anything old can be fairly easily be refreshed with BAM

    To not have FP on your cab is to turn your back on some fine originals. :yes:

     

     

     

    #138020
     LynnInDenver 
    Participant
    Member

    I’ve gotten a bunch of tables downloaded. I’ll probably have a smaller selection than you, Terry, but then, I’ll also admit I don’t have nearly all the Loserman tables on the cab either. :whistle: Definitely been hitting many of those names and I’ll be testing and selecting.

    SlamT1lt, I’ll be downloading some of his tables, but not all certainly. It’s probably going to depend on the enhanced table in question versus the base table as it appears in VPX. I’ll admit that a brief mention of “Future Pinball is better than Visual Pinball” from him (with the idea of the rubber room thrown in) does rub me the wrong way; it’s not better overall, it’s just differently focused, it has advantages over Visual Pinball in the editor and provided features (Backglass and DMD doesn’t require added software etc), but Visual Pinball has advantages in expansion flexibility (which enables things like direct DOF control that’s crippled in Future Pinball because of the method used to prevent software like PinMAME from operating with it).

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138034
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    SLAM is certainly a FP fanboy until the day he dies…and his choice of words can be over the top at times.  He will be the first person to tell you to not take anything he posts seriously as he always exaggerates everything. The way he talks in in a PM verses some of the stuff he posts is night and day. He even posted the other day saying he’s amazed at some of the “british word for crap” he posts. Many of his tables are here at VPinball (in the link I provided), and they are excellent. Some of his stuff are mods of other tables to the point where it’s almost a completely different table (Jaws U-Pro and Iron Man U-Pro, Aliens Legacy). Others are originals like A Nightmare on Elm Street or Bond 50.

    Rom (creator of Jaws, motu, minions, Knight Rider, Gone in 60 Seconds, and much more) is a great modeler and is really good at table design. He contacted me not long ago on YT telling me he loved seeing my Mastered Edition mod of motu (adding the videos, DOFLinx, etc).

    Francisco666 has made loads of tables on FP. He recently came out of hiding and updated ID4 (it’s over at pinsimdb) which has a much better looking playfield image (he did a redraw) and he came up with how to use BAM for adding a Ball shadow on that table.

    Steve Paradis (Polygame, HappCab) is probably the only person who creates his tables with completely original content. He also just came out of hiding.

     

    As you said… both FP and VPX have their advantages over each other. One doesn’t have to better than the other. Play a table…if you like it great.. if not, move on. If someone is “wired” to only enjoy the way VPX plays, then they won’t enjoy FP, FX3, Zaccaria, etc. Same goes the other way. I only played FP when I first built my cabinet. When I played VPX tables the first time I was terrible and it took a while to adjust. Same goes for anyone going from playing VPX to FP.

    I play better on Jaws Ultimate Pro compared to how I play on Jaws in VPX as an example. Why? Because I’ve being coding in Jaws U-Pro’s script and testing the hell out of it for the last 2 weeks doing my DOFLinx, SSF, PuP-Pack mod.

    #138126
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    Thanks to francisco666 (he’s back!) and Gimil (the BAM features master) and BAM… we now can have Ball Shadows for FP tables. You can have videos, objects, toys…anything attached to other moving objects using BAM really.

    Yes, it’s been done on VPX tables…but this is the first anyone tried it on FP tables…and it really helps give it a non-floaty look to the ball. I’ll be adding it to any FP tables I mod for sure! With newer BAM dynamic physics…different Ball Textures, Ball shadows, and increased table slope…it really makes a big difference in how the table plays and looks.

    Here’s the original post from him at gopinball:

    http://www.gopinball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=9117

    FP Ball shadow

    #138181
     shiva 
    Participant

    Slam is something else isn’t he? :)

    The improvements to FP has even made me come out from under my rock and actually do something. I don’t agree FP physics though are better, it’s not, there is a lot of work that needs to be done there to say the least, but, the one thing I have noticed when you compare certain FP games to a VPX  game that the FP games are just more fun to play sometimes, at least to me. It’s not just the physics, and lets face it, VPX just bitch slaps FP in some areas, but it is also the “feel” of the game, and FP is better than that over VPX.

    Of course, I would naturally be more included to be with FP, after 20 years, I am just so damned tired of playing the same games over and over with vp and vpinmame. So I love to play all the new originals that FP gets, and revisit a lot of the older ones, lousy physics or not. It’s not a competition with vpx, it just serves to fill in the gaps that vpx doesn’t have, like all the originals and the authors that are capable of scripting them, just happen to be with FP.

    _____________________________________

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    #138587
     goofything 
    Participant

    I’m a complete noob in regards to FP, but thank you for all of this information and your guides. It’s inspired me to consider installing it when I get some extra time. @Terry You’re a huge fan and contributor to Pinup Popper as a front-end but it looks like you are recommending PinballX for FP. Am I understanding that correct or is it fine to run FP without PinballX or within Pinpu?

    One other question I had, is FP just easier to build tables in? Is that why there are so many originals for FP and recreations in VPX? I absolutely love the VPX tables so haven’t wanted to wade into another learning curve with FP. But, I think you have me convinced it’s worth a shot.

    Cheers.

    #138611
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    I’m a complete noob in regards to FP, but thank you for all of this information and your guides. It’s inspired me to consider installing it when I get some extra time. @Terry You’re a huge fan and contributor to Pinup Popper as a front-end but it looks like you are recommending PinballX for FP. Am I understanding that correct or is it fine to run FP without PinballX or within Pinpu?

    One other question I had, is FP just easier to build tables in? Is that why there are so many originals for FP and recreations in VPX? I absolutely love the VPX tables so haven’t wanted to wade into another learning curve with FP. But, I think you have me convinced it’s worth a shot.

    Cheers.

    No front-end is better than another for any emulator, let alone FP.

    FP doesn’t need anything except for BAM to runs tables. If you want to use pup-packs with FP tables that support it….then obviously you need all the software required for that.

     

    VPX is easier for recreations that use roms because of vpinmame.

    FP is easier in general to make tables for… but both FP and VPX have certain features / updates that the other doesn’t have. You need to use BAM for any new features or updates as FP hasn’t been updated since 2008!

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  TerryRed.
    #138640
     shiva 
    Participant

    I’m a complete noob in regards to FP, but thank you for all of this information and your guides. It’s inspired me to consider installing it when I get some extra time. @Terry You’re a huge fan and contributor to Pinup Popper as a front-end but it looks like you are recommending PinballX for FP. Am I understanding that correct or is it fine to run FP without PinballX or within Pinpu?

    One other question I had, is FP just easier to build tables in? Is that why there are so many originals for FP and recreations in VPX? I absolutely love the VPX tables so haven’t wanted to wade into another learning curve with FP. But, I think you have me convinced it’s worth a shot.

    Cheers.

    Fp will be even more easier to use and to make tables with than vpx, if I have my way that is. By nature, FP is far easier to use, vpx, no matter how wonderful it is, has gotten very complex, and the standards that everyone judges tables by there gets higher and higher, and even more extreme. Even though VPinMAME is a lot easier to do, everything else in VPX is a lot more involved than FP. vpinmame authors are now using complex programs like Blender to pre build their tables with lighting and shadows, and if you are any other person on the planet that see’s that, that’s just too intimidating let alone the enormous amount of time needed to just to learn everything. VPX is just complex, even the materials editor is far more involved and requires a lot of fiddling if you have never used it before (or do what everyone else does, and just copy the basic set from JP)

    But, the main thing is if you want to learn the basics, get your feet wet, build a few simple tables, then it is really no choice, FP. You can learn the basic stuff in a far easier manner than vpx, and once you feel you are ready, then you can tackle vpx. Lot less to fiddle around with, far simpler editor

    Consider VPX the major leagues, and FP the Triple A league. Learn the game and how to do it, and then once you are ready to learn more, graduate to the big leagues.

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    Latest projects and rants at My Facebook Page
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    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  shiva.
    #138657
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    I’m a complete noob in regards to FP, but thank you for all of this information and your guides. It’s inspired me to consider installing it when I get some extra time. @Terry You’re a huge fan and contributor to Pinup Popper as a front-end but it looks like you are recommending PinballX for FP. Am I understanding that correct or is it fine to run FP without PinballX or within Pinpu?

    One other question I had, is FP just easier to build tables in? Is that why there are so many originals for FP and recreations in VPX? I absolutely love the VPX tables so haven’t wanted to wade into another learning curve with FP. But, I think you have me convinced it’s worth a shot.

    Cheers.

    Fp will be even more easier to use and to make tables with than vpx, if I have my way that is. By nature, FP is far easier to use, vpx, no matter how wonderful it is, has gotten very complex, and the standards that everyone judges tables by there gets higher and higher, and even more extreme. Even though VPinMAME is a lot easier to do, everything else in VPX is a lot more involved than FP. vpinmame authors are now using complex programs like Blender to pre build their tables with lighting and shadows, and if you are any other person on the planet that see’s that, that’s just too intimidating let alone the enormous amount of time needed to just to learn everything. VPX is just complex, even the materials editor is far more involved and requires a lot of fiddling if you have never used it before (or do what everyone else does, and just copy the basic set from JP)

    But, the main thing is if you want to learn the basics, get your feet wet, build a few simple tables, then it is really no choice, FP. You can learn the basic stuff in a far easier manner than vpx, and once you feel you are ready, then you can tackle vpx. Lot less to fiddle around with, far simpler editor

    Consider VPX the major leagues, and FP the Triple A league. Learn the game and how to do it, and then once you are ready to learn more, graduate to the big leagues.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  shiva.

    It wasn’t until I helped out randr with MOTU VPX and JAWS VPX that I realized just how much easier everything is in FP. I really wish more people would appreciate that instead of bitching about what they don’t like about it.

    #138664
     LynnInDenver 
    Participant
    Member

    I’ve got a selection of something like 30 tables so far. I’ll probably be looking for still more, but it’s a good start. I’ll probably be getting them onto the pincab this weekend.

    I agree with the idea that VPX is complicated in comparison; it’s again that whole thing that some of what VPX can be made to do requires additional software, and isn’t built in like it is with FP. Things like DMD (UltraDMD documentation is damned sparse) and backglass (when was the last time DirectB2S Server updated?) are a right pain to do in VPX because of it, and the backglass stuff doesn’t seem to support alphanumeric directly out of the box. PinUp is actually a little easier, but even then you still have the choice of, do you drive it directly in script, or do you configure DOF and drive it as a PuP-Pack? It took me longer to get my VPX framework to a playable state last year (scores, four players, start and stop) than it took to get something running in FP when I was starting out a few years ago.

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138764
     shiva 
    Participant

    I recently reinstalled vp after not even having it for years. Even the damn installer for it can throw out errors because it requires plug ins to be used and just too many plugins. Too many different versions for each of these, and half the stuff doesn’t even work because the author didn’t provide the information correctly. I’m just a desktop user, don’t use cabinets, front ends, any of the multiple DMD stuff, just the same as roughly 80% of the users of vp. Why is it so damn difficult to use vp then?  FP physics are not that bad, certainly a lot better now days, but I look at vpx and the editor, all these things that have to be added, and the amount of time it takes just to find the information to fix even simple errors. Everything is now just one big lump of overly complicated mess now to me.

    Honestly, I think the only reason I use FP over vpx with some games is because it’s just far more easier and a lot less hassle than using vp.

    _____________________________________

    Latest projects and rants at My Facebook Page
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    #138770
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    I recently reinstalled vp after not even having it for years. Even the damn installer for it can throw out errors because it requires plug ins to be used and just too many plugins. Too many different versions for each of these, and half the stuff doesn’t even work because the author didn’t provide the information correctly. I’m just a desktop user, don’t use cabinets, front ends, any of the multiple DMD stuff, just the same as roughly 80% of the users of vp. Why is it so damn difficult to use vp then?  FP physics are not that bad, certainly a lot better now days, but I look at vpx and the editor, all these things that have to be added, and the amount of time it takes just to find the information to fix even simple errors. Everything is now just one big lump of overly complicated mess now to me.

    Honestly, I think the only reason I use FP over vpx with some games is because it’s just far more easier and a lot less hassle than using vp.

    In all fairness… I was worried about bothering with VP when I built my cabinet after not touching VP for years. If you use the VPX 10.5 AIO installer for VP, that is most of what you need as a desktop user. Pretty easy, and I can’t say I’ve ever had any issues with each one I’ve installed. After that you just update to the latest 10.6 beta, and the latest SAM vpinmame on VPU. Then after that Pinup Player for pup-based tables. That’s all you need.

     

    That said… any FP desktop user who will want to use my upcoming update to Jaws Ultimate Pro for just my new pup-pack (or if they want cabinet stuff for DOF)… they will need to install (if they don’t already have it):

    VPX AIO installer (easiest way to install b2s server which is needed for doflinx)

    DOF R3++ (may not be needed…but it’s possible DOFLinx would need it still)

    DOFLinx

    Pinup Player

    PuP-Pack

    Windowed Borderless Gaming. A program that will force FP (when in windowed mode) to run in Borderless Windowed mode (to allow the pup-pack to display on top of the FP window.

     

    Luckily I’m a nice guy, and I’ll include a new video to go through that entire process. It’s not as hard as people think…and while it may seem to be a bit much to the average desktop user… if you want the extra bling, you gotta do a bit of setup. After that you’re golden.

    #138772
     outhere 
    Participant
    MemberContributor

    Why is it so damn difficult to use vp then?  — It’s not

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  outhere.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  outhere.
    #138778
     LynnInDenver 
    Participant
    Member

    Ultra DMD seems to be the Achilles Heel of the entire install process for VP. I’ve lost track of the number of threads where even a fresh new install doesn’t work for people. And I’ve had things work right on the desktop that don’t work right on the pincab.

    The only real reason I’m even focusing on VP over FP is that VP is still being “actively” developed, but I question what will happen if Microsoft announces that 32-bit support will go away. It could well be that VP is actually on borrowed time as well.

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138780
     shiva 
    Participant

    Then the vpm team will have to make their program 64 bit then if they want to continue. Hell of a lot of work though. VP will always exist as long as there is the demand. Maybe new people will join up, with the knowledge to help them. It’s something that a few people have wanted, just for the performance improvement, but I believe there’s also things like the newer versions of  DirectX involved, though I may be wrong on that.

    _____________________________________

    Latest projects and rants at My Facebook Page
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    #138782
     LynnInDenver 
    Participant
    Member

    Well, there does seem to be a whole cultural “it’s always worked well this way,” ask anyone over at VPF about doing portrait mode, and watch people calmly advise that it’s setting yourself up for a lot more work for little gain. They even recommend using switching software for the pinball simulators rather than changing something that’s a legacy of when you couldn’t tell your video card you wanted portrait.

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138787
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    Well, there does seem to be a whole cultural “it’s always worked well this way,” ask anyone over at VPF about doing portrait mode, and watch people calmly advise that it’s setting yourself up for a lot more work for little gain. They even recommend using switching software for the pinball simulators rather than changing something that’s a legacy of when you couldn’t tell your video card you wanted portrait.

    I’m one that will say that you will be in for more work by using Portrait…mainly because 95% of all VPX tables are setup for Landscape. If you want to use Portrait, then you will be changing your POV on most tables to make it work. That said… it’s actually better in the long run to use Portrait, as ALL systems (except for VPX) will automatically work with it. Popper works with Portrait as well….but your media would need to be created in portrait to match (without needing to rotate in Popper settings, not the best idea for 4K media). Most of the playfield videos you can download are in Landscape, but you can easily create your own or convert them using my batch files.

     

    I think it would be better in the long run to have VPX use portrait as a standard for tables for cabinet view. If someone made a Portrait POV files collection for all tables than you wouldn’t need to even update the tables. There have been times where I was tempted to go Portrait and create the POVs for myself….but in the end I’m making more work for myself with little benefit.

    #138788
     TerryRed 
    Moderator
    MemberContributorModerator

    @shiva

     

    Are you blue on the GoPinball forums? It’s hard to keep track of everyone’s different names.

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