This topic contains 19 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Scottacus 3 months ago.

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  • #114854
     Scottacus 
    Participant
    Member

    That might be what Han thinks but what are the odds of getting a matching number on my 1973 Williams Darling machine?  That’s a good question that I took a look into today because I was playing around with the match unit.

    On an EM machine, the match unit sits in the machine’s head and has a set of spring arms that advance one index every time the player scores 10 points.  These arms are connected to the match lights behind the backglass as well as to a circuit that goes to each players 10’s reels.  If at the end of the game then player’s 10’s digit reel score matches the number lit by the match unit, the player gets a free game.

    Here is a photo of the match unit schematic for Darling and you can see that the sequence of match numbers goes 70, 10, 60, 00, 40, 90, 50, 20, 80, 30 since the arms rotate counterclockwise.  Remember that at the start of a new game the reels all reset to zero so lets take a look at a possible starting point.

    20190220_151642

    Suppose the last game ended with a match score of 70 and you put in a coin and start a 1 player game.  Your first 10 point score would put 10 on the 10’s reel and the match unit would rotate one position to the left so it would point at 10.  Wow a match!  Keep following this along and you’ll see that the machine will match at 10, 40 and 80, that’s a whopping 3/10 or 30% chance.

    Now suppose you start a one player game with a match score of 60.  If you follow the same logic you’ll find that there are NO possible combinations for matches regardless of what score you have on the 10’s reel.  This is also true of 20, 30, 40 and 80 as start match numbers.

    So if you walk into an arcade with just one coin in your pocket, aren’t a great player and want the greatest chance of getting a free game, don’t put your coin into a Darling game with 20, 30, 40, 60 or 80 on the match display.  You have a 0% chance of getting a match!

    The odds for the remaining match numbers are 70 (3/10), 10 (1/10), 00 (2/10), 90 (1/10), 50 (3/10).

    So what are the overall odds for a one player game?

    -No idea what the starting number is 1/10 – 10%

    -Start on 20, 30, 40, 60 or 80 0/10 – 0%

    -Start on remaining numbers 10/50 -20%

    -Start a two player game – 1/10 – 10%

    #114878
     Sliderpoint 
    Participant
    MemberContributor

    Clever info. How common is that match unit on Williams machines of that Era?

    -Mike

    #114879
     Scottacus 
    Participant
    Member

    I don’t know but I assume that it was the standard unit for all Williams machines, it works independently of the number of players.  There is a plug in the backbox for enabling of disabling matching so that would let the operator decide wether to use the feature or not.

    I’ve seen settings in SS machines for setting the pay out.  Do those use a random number generator or do they index forward with certain point scores?

    #114906
     bord 
    Participant
    Member

    Really interesting. So now you’ve got to script it…

    #114908
     LynnInDenver 
    Participant
    Member

    I’ve seen settings in SS machines for setting the pay out. Do those use a random number generator or do they index forward with certain point scores?

    I think most SS machines (particularly later ones) simply use a random number generator of some form, instead of trying to index forward on a table. Early SS machines, silicon storage was expensive enough that doing it as an index table could have pushed up the cost quite a bit (by requiring a larger die) versus just “generate a number from here to here, round, present result and match to score digit”.

    #114922
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I don’t see how it can be random if there is a set “payout” limit to lest say 10%.

    #114938
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    Really interesting. So now you’ve got to script it…

    I’m going to have to figure out Gottlieb’s now and make it work.  scripting should be easy, I’m thinking an array… but I’m sure there are other ways.

    … OK, so 30 minutes after starting this post it appears the Gottlieb’s do run sequentually, at least in the post 1966ish era using the small AS relay for match.. now I’m off to see which way it runs, be back soon…

    hmm, not sure on direction, I believe it goes up, but I no longer have an em to test one of the relays… maybe @gnance will chime in.

    So, if that is the case and I’m thinking right, on a single player game the only way you will ever match is if the last match number was a 00, since the player score starts at 00 and it would keep in time with the match unit while scoring assuming it all functions right.  Does that make sense? (I’m pretty sure that’s how mine are mostly scripted as well, never paid attention to it matching).  maybe it goes reverse direction then I would have to think about it, but still there would only be one prior score it would match on. hmmm

     

    #114940
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    so just found a video of the little gottlieb stepper in action and it does go up in sequence, so unless it’s wired out of sequence (which I see no signs of that on the schematics) it is sequential.

    #114946
     vogliadicane 
    Participant
    Member

    all I do remember from that time and I think it was a Gottlieb table:

    some other person, who knew what’s the next match number, tilt the table, when the player had a certain 10-20-30… score, to get a replay. And we got many – lol. B-) So, I think it was sequential.

    #114965
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Some idiot scripted this into Jive Time, but didn’t realize the unit rotated counter clock wise  :wacko:

    No, he’s not releasing an update for this.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of Pinball Magic

    #114969
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    I don’t feel so bad, the Jive Time manual doesn’t have the nice arrow showing the unit direction.

     

    jtmatch

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of Pinball Magic

    #114993
     Scottacus 
    Participant
    Member

    A Gottlieb table will only match on a 00????

    #114994
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Some schematics I’ve looked at advance the match unit on more than just 10 point scores. I wonder if that’s the key to matching on a Gottlieb?

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of Pinball Magic

    #114996
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    Yeah I know it’s not always 10 on every table, but usually it’s just  tied to the 10 point relay. It is if the prior game had a match number of 00, then when the score resets, they are in sync for a 1 player game, assuming I follow it right. Maybe I’ll post it up on pinside and see what the experts say.

    #114997
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    I really can’t follow schematics that well, but on Sky Jump for instance the relay for the match increment is tied to the 1000 point relay, on golden Arrow and jack’s open it is tied to the 10 point relay, and on vulcan it appears to be only tied to the player 1 10 point relay, on jungle princess it’s tied to the center pop bumper :scratch:   .  From the wire color coding on the ones I’ve checked they do run in order incrementally, but it does appear to at least vary somewhat from game to game.

    beyond that :unsure:

     

    #115038
     Scottacus 
    Participant
    Member

    Do Gottlieb games have a manual in addition to the schematic?  Relay and unit wiring details are shown there on Williams games.

    If you want to send me a Gottlieb schematic I can help you interpret it.

    #115039
     GNance 
    Participant

    I checked my Jacks Open machine this morning by advancing the match relay manually.  The numbers counted backward from 90 to 00 as the relay advanced.

    I remember working on my Top Score machine several years back and found that the relay advanced once each time a 100 point bumper was hit, unless the kicker hole special was lit (which came on at the beginning of each ball) in which case the relay didn’t advance.  Something like that anyway, so that you couldn’t look at the score and determine where the match relay is positioned.

     

    #115081
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Cool, thanks Gary. Now I have to rescript all my tables! Ok, not really, but I will pay more attention if I update or make new ones, not that match is that important in the virtual world.</p>
    <p style=”padding-left: 30px;”>I looked at one schematic last night, don’t remember which one, but it changed depending on if in 3 ball or 5 ball.</p>

    #115082
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    Do Gottlieb games have a manual in addition to the schematic? Relay and unit wiring details are shown there on Williams games.

    If you want to send me a Gottlieb schematic I can help you interpret it.

    They do have a manual, but I have not seen any wiring details for that unit in them. Maybe in the service manuals that I probably don’t have.

    #115133
     Scottacus 
    Participant
    Member

    That makes sense that the match unit is not linked directly to the 1x relay but is only advanced by certain elements or conditions that feed the 1x relay.  This would prevent the one to one relationship that would only allow matches at 00.

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