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IMHO
If it is a new table release, no mod releases for 2-3 months. After that, feel free to share any level of mod you want. Just make sure you give credit and make sure the author allows mod releases
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As BorgDog said: A mod vs personal preferences are two different things.
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So here is my “very long” two cents here on this excellent topic.
So if someone takes a known “very very good” table… regardless of author (we all know which tables those are), and wants to personalize them with different physics, lighting, and other similar “subjective” things. I would not be inclined, to allow someone to post it up on the site as a Mod…especially if its one of one of my tables. I think “subjective” is the key word here.
Another way to look at it…is in terms of value add. So if there is a Mod of one of my tables, and it only encompassed physics changes and lighting. Would I see that as true “value add” compared to my official release? Likely not. Because one mans personal preferences, is another mans “pile of crapthat deserves to go in the recycle bin…immediately”. Yes I was told this about one of my tables…early on.
Now if someone really wanted to add some value to one of my tables. And if it was “real value” such as vastly improved graphics, “visual” ball behaviors or similar enhancements. I would be very inclined to ask, “can I simply add it to my latest table” and add this new contribute to the long list of credits. And then I would simply, do a new revision. And as everybody already knows. I fear no revisions on my tables!
Now if some took one of my tables and improved it to such a degree, where even my jaw hits the floor and makes me say “Holy Shit…This really looks bad-ass”. I would be much more inclined, to allow them to post their own personal Mod…along side mine. But I would still ask up-front, can we just agree to incorporate them into my official release. But the option is more open here. So as you can see. The door is there, to possibly allow a mod of one of my tables. But that door is very narrow, and for good reason.
Now there is a very good current example of this. And that is Arconovum’s FSS tables. That is “bad ass” for sure, and worthy of a Mod. But I would still like to see the ability, to incorporate all of the FSS stuff, into my original release down the road, and have the option available, to easily choose between FS, DT and FSS views as one chooses. Especially if the tables in both releases, are exactly the same…would they should be. This would just be much easier and less fragmented IMO, for the noobs and folks who are not as well versed with VP, as some of the rest of us “pros”are. Maybe that can happen down the road, and there can be a one size fits all release.
So another one of my angles, is to not allow the opportunity, for someone to feel the need, to want to make a mod of one of my tables. And what do I mean by that? I prefer to continuously improve my tables in every single aspect possible, to ensure it is so cutting edge, that nobody feels compelled, to want to make a mod of one of my tables. But that said, I can certainly see where someone might not like my physics or lighting, and may want to replace those, with their own personal preferences…which again, is totally fine with me. In fact…every single VP10 table on my cab, contains my own personal physics preferences..because I like mine the best.
But I would never consider creating a Mod, that would compete with the original authors official releases, based on subjective tweaks.So a lot of what I am spewing above, comes from the fact that I (as well as those who assist me) have many hundreds of development hours in my tables. I shit you not, I suspect I have a minimum of 250 hours in some of my tables, when taking into account the initial development, and all of the subsequent revisions. And those tables were already started by other terrific authors in the community. But I just wanted to finish them…with their generous blessing of course. But with that said, I am very confident that when I start new ones in the future, it will not take nearly as long…due to what I have already learned along the way.
So should there be an avenue, to allow other folks in the community, to pass along their preferences with the intent that others will find them “valuable”. Absolutely there should be! But I just don’t believe it should be in the form of a Mod. Right or wrong, that’s just how I personally feel about it. Now what would that avenue look like? I really don’t know right off-hand. because in order to go in and personalize tables, is to really go in and “surgically” change things around, and lots of things at that. And I am not sure that this can be handled with patches or some of the other things… suggested in this thread. At least with any measure of ease.
One thing that I think would greatly help someone, to provide there personal preferences in a very useful way, is to try to standard certain things, within VP itself. That way, things can be personalized on a more global level, and not at a surgical level, deep down in the guts of the table itself. This is one of those reasons why I have posted so many threads pertaining to physics over the last few years. And have started the discussion to try standardize things, at least better than what we do know. But of course, every author has a different opinion of what the standards should be. And as long as that is the case, then it will be very difficult to have a process where one can “post up” their personal preferences, for others to experience. And the only way that could be easily done, is to post the entire table, in the form of a MOD.
And “Therein lies the rub”.
My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: MSI Micro-ATX Z390m MOBO, Core I5-9600K CPU @ 3.70GHz, 16GB NVRAM, Nvidia 1660 Super,
40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, Dual 23" monitors in the backbox , Pinscape w. expansion board, Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support
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I’ve “modded” at least half the tables in my library… meaning set up the lighting, physics, etc they way I like them. I’ve sent a couple changes to authors along the way, but for the most part I wouldn’t consider trying to publish these as a “mod” because all I’m doing is an elaborate version of tweaking some graphics settings in a video game (even though the “tweaking” in VP takes a bit more work). The changes really don’t have much value because, even though they are improvements to me, they are just preferences that I have tweaked in a video game. Things beyond this, such as improved table resources, have value to everyone and would probably be welcomed as a mod.
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Sorry in advance Skitso for using your post for my own purpose
This is my list of unreleased table “mods”/fixes that deserve to be named on my opinion (I do small changes on almost all the released tables), a reminder just in case one of the authors see this post and wants to see/share them:
Elvira and the Party Monsters (Bally 1989): bumper animation fixed, clipping on some plastics fixed, added missing ramp decals, some material changes (posted on the support post but no answer).
Simpsons, The (Data East 1990): fixed some of the non working lights, clipping on some plastics fixed, added a shadow layer and optional toys, material changes, some wall fixes (the author agreed to update the table, but I think he forgot about this one cause a lot of months passed since then).
Swords of Fury mod (Williams 1988): I already participated on this mod, but I did some small new enhancements and fixed the size of the top flippers (the author is taking a break, maybe randr can update it for him?).
Ghostbusters (Stern 2016): New ramp texture, one plastic and playfield enhancements, ball light clipping fixed, a ramp wall fixed (table banned, I never asked the authors).
Jurassic Park (Data East 1993): Some super small changes on the awesome playfield redraw, modified a little the T-Rex textures and the bumpers, and fixed the egg light (posted here on the support topic but no answer).
Star Wars (Data East 1992): My most loved mod, a lot of work on the already awesome 4K playfield, new plastics with increased resolution, almost all the lights modified, new textures, added optional toys, a shadow layer, some fixes and new physics, and a lot of other details, still working on it sometimes since the release, I really want to share this one (the author don’t answer my PMs anymore, and I don’t see him here neither, but I’m afraid he can return some day and get angry if I share this without his permission).
Tales of the Arabian Nights Skitso mod (Williams 1996): Some playfield and material modifications (I think I told him but I forgot to share the file, if still interested send me a PM Skitso!).
All the other small mods and fixes I did are already available to download on the official releases cause I contacted the author and he added them to his own updates, usually with credits.
I love mods, please if someone read this and wants to share his own mods with me privately please tell me, alsto the small ones if they go beyond changing the physics and light preferences hehe.
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Thanks for a great and long response, wrd! I have a highest level of respect for you and the other “high level” table authors among this amazing community. It would never ever even cross my mind to mod your amazing pinbot for example. Why would I? (Or even could?) It’s so close to perfection already.
The tables I have touched the most are older and more… technically primitive ones like Congo, Elvis, Ripleys Believe or not, Big Bang Bar, Fish Tales, Twilight Zone, Theatre of Magic, CV, TOTAN and the like..
With those not absolutely photorealistically perfect tables, I can make a difference with my skills in texturing, lighting and shadows plus keen visual eye for details… So all you super skilled pros, fear not: I’m not going to just tinker your amazing pieces of art thinking I can make them better. I can’t and won’t. I’m not good enough for that.
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Sorry in advance Skitso for using your post for my own purpose
This is my list of unreleased table “mods”/fixes that deserve to be named on my opinion (I do small changes on almost all the released tables), a reminder just in case one of the authors see this post and wants to see/share them:
Elvira and the Party Monsters (Bally 1989): bumper animation fixed, clipping on some plastics fixed, added missing ramp decals, some material changes (posted on the support post but no answer).
Simpsons, The (Data East 1990): fixed some of the non working lights, clipping on some plastics fixed, added a shadow layer and optional toys, material changes, some wall fixes (the author agreed to update the table, but I think he forgot about this one cause a lot of months passed since then).
Swords of Fury mod (Williams 1988): I already participated on this mod, but I did some small new enhancements and fixed the size of the top flippers (the author is taking a break, maybe randr can update it for him?).
Ghostbusters (Stern 2016): New ramp texture, one plastic and playfield enhancements, ball light clipping fixed, a ramp wall fixed (table banned, I never asked the authors).
Jurassic Park (Data East 1993): Some super small changes on the awesome playfield redraw, modified a little the T-Rex textures and the bumpers, and fixed the egg light (posted here on the support topic but no answer).
Star Wars (Data East 1992): My most loved mod, a lot of work on the already awesome 4K playfield, new plastics with increased resolution, almost all the lights modified, new textures, added optional toys, a shadow layer, some fixes and new physics, and a lot of other details, still working on it sometimes since the release, I really want to share this one (the author don’t answer my PMs anymore, and I don’t see him here neither, but I’m afraid he can return some day and get angry if I share this without his permission).
Tales of the Arabian Nights Skitso mod (Williams 1996): Some playfield and material modifications (I think I told him but I forgot to share the file, if still interested send me a PM Skitso!).
All the other small mods and fixes I did are already available to download on the official releases cause I contacted the author and he added them to his own updates, usually with credits.
I love mods, please if someone read this and wants to share his own mods with me privately please tell me, alsto the small ones if they go beyond changing the physics and light preferences hehe.
I for one subjectively enjoy carefully upscaled textures, new plastics, 3D primitives, etc. I don’t think it is such a clear demarcation about what constitutes major versus minor improvements.
EATPM – too bad on that one cause that’s a personal favorite, 32A tends to accept changes but people have picked on his stuff before which I think would be demotivating. There is constructive criticism and there is pushing, pushing, pushing for some agenda.
Star Wars – try @DJRobX as a co-author? He seems to be taking a little break, but he’s responsive at least at VPU.
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Thanks for a great and long response, wrd! I have a highest level of respect for you and the other “high level” table authors among this amazing community. It would never ever even cross my mind to mod your amazing pinbot for example. Why would I? (Or even could?) It’s so close to perfection already.
The tables I have touched the most are older and more… technically primitive ones like Congo, Elvis, Ripleys Believe or not, Big Bang Bar, Fish Tales, Twilight Zone, Theatre of Magic, CV, TOTAN and the like..
With those not absolutely photorealistically perfect tables, I can make a difference with my skills in texturing, lighting and shadows plys keen visual eye for details… So all you super skilled pros, fear not: I’m not going to just tinker your amazing pieces of art thinking I can make them better. I can’t and won’t. I’m not good enough for that.
Too bad. Regarding LoadedWeapon, I recall that he’d drop a Mod within 24 hours of a from scratch VP9 build. I was always a bit shocked. But he never seemed to draw much pushback. At the time, his lighting was just that good.
I never released any mods, but the few times that I have fixed some items for myself (ex. fixing Family Guy mini-playfield insert lights) that I wanted to share I simply described the steps that allowed others to make the same fix for themselves. Something like that doesn’t even break the spirit of the law IMO, and would certainly be appreciated by me. Or a general mini-tutorial on your particular approach to mods might be helpful if there are techniques that carry over from table to table. I sort of know my way around the VP editor, but I’m far from an expert.
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Sorry in advance Skitso for using your post for my own purpose
This is my list of unreleased table “mods”/fixes that deserve to be named on my opinion (I do small changes on almost all the released tables), a reminder just in case one of the authors see this post and wants to see/share them:
Elvira and the Party Monsters (Bally 1989): bumper animation fixed, clipping on some plastics fixed, added missing ramp decals, some material changes (posted on the support post but no answer).
Simpsons, The (Data East 1990): fixed some of the non working lights, clipping on some plastics fixed, added a shadow layer and optional toys, material changes, some wall fixes (the author agreed to update the table, but I think he forgot about this one cause a lot of months passed since then).
Swords of Fury mod (Williams 1988): I already participated on this mod, but I did some small new enhancements and fixed the size of the top flippers (the author is taking a break, maybe randr can update it for him?).
Ghostbusters (Stern 2016): New ramp texture, one plastic and playfield enhancements, ball light clipping fixed, a ramp wall fixed (table banned, I never asked the authors).
Jurassic Park (Data East 1993): Some super small changes on the awesome playfield redraw, modified a little the T-Rex textures and the bumpers, and fixed the egg light (posted here on the support topic but no answer).
Star Wars (Data East 1992): My most loved mod, a lot of work on the already awesome 4K playfield, new plastics with increased resolution, almost all the lights modified, new textures, added optional toys, a shadow layer, some fixes and new physics, and a lot of other details, still working on it sometimes since the release, I really want to share this one (the author don’t answer my PMs anymore, and I don’t see him here neither, but I’m afraid he can return some day and get angry if I share this without his permission).
Tales of the Arabian Nights Skitso mod (Williams 1996): Some playfield and material modifications (I think I told him but I forgot to share the file, if still interested send me a PM Skitso!).
All the other small mods and fixes I did are already available to download on the official releases cause I contacted the author and he added them to his own updates, usually with credits.
I love mods, please if someone read this and wants to share his own mods with me privately please tell me, alsto the small ones if they go beyond changing the physics and light preferences hehe.
I for one subjectively enjoy carefully upscaled textures, new plastics, 3D primitives, etc. I don’t think it is such a clear demarcation about what constitutes major versus minor improvements.
EATPM – too bad on that one cause that’s a personal favorite, 32A tends to accept changes but people have picked on his stuff before which I think would be demotivating. There is constructive criticism and there is pushing, pushing, pushing for some agenda.
Star Wars – try @djrobx as a co-author? He seems to be taking a little break, but he’s responsive at least at VPU.
Did incorporated the things that he liked from Draifet’s mods in the latest version (unless Draifet has made more changes, which I’m sure he has, LOL)
They have some creative differences with how they want the table presented (for example, Draifet likes a brighter playfield). I know Did takes pride in that table and wants to keep ownership of it. I think if you’re really eager to share your work, you could use the VPU table patching system or something like that to ensure Did’s version remains the primary table but still share your changes.
I can’t speak for Did but I would think even sharing a dropbox link to your version is fine. Just don’t upload the table as a “new version” (like a Hannibal mod).
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@DjRob I’m grateful to Did and specially to u for your awesome table and continuous work (I can’t tank u enough all your VPX improvements), but sincerely, my two cents are that he didn’t have time or motivation to do something with my changes, he said “creative differences”, I don’t remember exactly what he took from my changes, but something between nothing and 1%, at least the backglass light reflections were fixed, they were upside down on the first release, and the table log says Draifet physics but wasn’t true at all cause no object physics were imported, probably nothing more. I can understand texture changes, materials and lights as a personal taste, but not updating the plastics for anothers with increased resolution and detail, gameplay fixes (ball can dissapear on the targets, or fall from the ramp, and other small issues), or the modified playfield, isn’t questionable on my opinion. The light of the playfield was originally very low cause as u said the first playfield was very blurry and was a fix to hide the bad resolution, the new one is composed with stitched photos, I erased the visible seams, light artifacts, and photo noise (I like a lot the scratches and defects of the real photos and are still there), I changed the shape to fit better the elements of the original table that was build over the old playfield, and added new light playfield images cause I think some of the inserts were out and they look like a brown empty circle, how all of this fits as “creative differences”?… Of course I did a lot of other new changes since then, and finally fixed the X-Wing mode light, for this reason I tried to contact Did but no answer, as I already said I think he is busy with other real life chores. And the result of that treatment was i get frustated and abandoned my other projects, a Whirldwind and Congo mod, and I never again tried to do my own 3D ramps or baked light. Just telling my experience in case it serves to draw some conclusion about mods and for my own relief. I express myself very bad in english, sorry hehe.
Have a nice weekend.
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I have stoped modding for a few reasons. I have one last WIP that will either be uploaded as a v2.0 of the original authors table or as a rebuild almost from scratch with my name as the author. I’ll leave the decission to the original author. If he doesen’t want me to upload it, no problem. It will play perfect on my cab.
After that i will be available as a helper for other peoples projects (if somebody wants my help).
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Seeing how @Skitso, @Draifet and @Schreibi34 behaves in this community. I’m having a hard time seeing that they ever will thread on someones feet intentionally. I must admit – it makes me a bit sad knowing that these guys have made improvements that they are willing to share. Please guys, I hope you take contact with the original authors and get permissions to mod or are able to convince them to at least consider your changes. To me at least, you are all considered to be valuable members to our community and it would be a shame if all your hard work is hidden away on your own local copies when you are willing to share.
If all fails. Maybe the patch system isn’t a bad idea after all.
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I have few mods that I feel that are substantial enough to warrant a separate mod release. I’m in the process of negotiating if I can release one of them at the moment, but I have not yet received any answer from @nFozzy…
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Wouldn’t make any sense to me to put an almost brand new 300+ hours table in a patch. I haven’t asked the original VPX author for approval yet because i want to have something to show when asking. Blender file is now complete so i have something to show. We will see, but this guy was always very gratefull when it came to asking for approval.
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