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While trying to balance my SSFImpactor sound levels I noticed that I am hearing mechanical/spatial sounds coming out of the backbox speakers. Curious, I setup EqualizerAPO to only play one channel at a time and I get mechanical (ball rolling, pop bumpers, flippers, etc) partially on the backbox speakers. Some sounds play in each of the surround speakers but if I play with backbox off entirely I am missing a lot of ball rolling sounds (left/right mechanical sounds on the backbox appear reversed, but I could be wrong, my hearing isn’t great).
I don’t think my hardware is setup wrong. Surround sound check on windows plays correctly on each speaker in turn. And I am getting SOME effects on each channel. Its fairly noticeable that some are coming from the backbox so maybe I have done something wrong…. or is it known that all mechanical sounds aren’t redirected to the playfield speakers when in 7.1 mode. I suppose if the backbox speakers are part of the positioning algorithm they would get used which would make sense for a general purpose surround sound system but doesn’t quite seem right for the pinball application. All the mechanical sounds should be on the 4 playfield speakers I would think.
Anyone have any thoughts?
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I expect that you are referring to 10.7beta now aren’t you ? I’ve reported sound issues with the beta, waiting for it to get some attention from the devs. My advice, use 10.6.1 for now.
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I just reinstalled it a few days ago. Just checked the version, its 10.6.0
I’ll look for 10.6.1 and see if it makes a difference, otherwise I found where in the table scripts its being calculated and will fiddle with it until I understand it (first glance doesn’t make much sense). I should be able to at least force things to each speaker to confirm the programs idea of front, rear, left and right match up correctly.
Thanks for the tip.
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No, 10.6.1 is supposed to fix other things. Looking forward to your finding, even though I can’t say I’ve noticed anything myself. Except the broken 10.7beta :)
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EDIT: Was off base here too. Don’t like leaving bad info about.
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EDIT: I take it back, I don’t have any idea what its doing.
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For whats it worth I kinda got it figured out now. Something weird happens when Pan() resolves to very close to 0.0 (haven’t narrowed it down but its less than .005. i assume its rounding to 0.0 at some point). It throws audio to the backbox speakers. If I add a little code to Pan to round 0.0 up or down .005 when it gets too close to 0.0 then everything sounds perfect. No mechanical sounds to backbox (except an odd sound or two that I assume aren’t set spatially in the table i am using) and the positional sounds all over the playfield sound like they are coming from the right spot.
It is really weird, pan should only be effecting sounds left<->right. There must be something special about 0.0 making it revert to standard stereo speakers or something. There was something in the vpx source I saw about avoiding 0.0 that I will go back and take a peak at. It could probably be fixed in vpx if they were so inclined, otherwise you have to modify every table’s copy of the Pan() function everyone seems to use.
Not sure why I am the only one to notice/care, my hearing isn’t so good so I would have thought I’d be the last to notice. Probably because I have been playing with different sound settings and only listening to mechanical sounds, or dof ssfimpactor sounds, or only one set of speakers at a time.
EDIT: Well it might not be that simple…. I fired it back up and its still not quite right and I know I didn’t change anything.
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Alright. I battled with this for two days and figured out it was a moving target. Just as I would adjust the code to work the way I thought it should things would shift. Eventually weird things happened like no longer needing EqualizerAPO to redirect center channel to L/R backbox to hear rom sounds, then EqualizerAPO stopped being able to block individual channels (which is how I was testing where sound was coming from). A reinstall of EqualizerAPO and a reboot mostly fixed things (tho I still no longer need to redirect center channel to L/R speakers it seems). Looks like either Windows surround sound or RealTek’s drivers aren’t incredibly stable if you are repeatedly adjusting things.
So was that instability the only problem I had? No. The Pan() range still shifts mechanical sounds to the backbox (with L/R reversed) when the function result is between -.15 and +.15. Makes no sense as Pan() should just be shifting things L/R but if in that range it starts playing effects from the top of the playfield into the backbox. Maybe I am the only one who this happens to and its a bug in my soundsystem. As it stands I would have to put an alternate Pan() function in any table I want to work correctly. I am going to try to simplify the function and will post it in a new thread in case any one else needs it. I could trace it into the VPX code and see if it could be caught at the source of the problem but since I have no idea if anyone else sees the issue (or cares) I would rather get back to building my cabinet (STILL don’t have pinscape board mounted and buttons wired in).
Maybe this thread will be useful to someone in the future
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How are you programming those sounds of yours ? Via the sounds manager or via script ? I would expect that I would have noticed this a while ago, especially from the ball rolling sound. Almost all the sounds I’m doing is via script, using either objects or the ball as the active object. When I first setup my ssf, I too struggled a bit with my sound drivers. Everything looked correct, but, didn’t work. I pressed any reset button I was able to find and started over, ending up with a working setup that looked just like the one I had previously. I’m on Win7 and I know that some Win10 users have struggled with updates that has broken their setup. I haven’t touch my setup in years, partly because I’m happy with it and also slightly out of fear of messing it up.
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I’ve just been adjusting the Pan() and AudioFade() functions in the Attack From Mars script and today in the Star Trek Next Generation Script. In the end I’ve only had to adjust Pan() to stop the backbox sounds. Its super obvious in Attack From Mars. Turn down your surround sound speakers, launch a ball, and listen to the pop bumper sound effects. They will come out of the backbox and loud (not talking about the ROM sounds when they hit, thats a fairly quiet sound effect at least when ROM sounds are down to 8). They also come from the surround sound speakers, but at my volume levels they were overwhelmingly from the backbox speakers. I am perfectly willing to believe its a bug in Windows 10/RealTek drivers. If I am the only one seeing this I am tempted to buy a standalone sound card and see if that fixes it, would rather spend that money than have to modify every table.
Function Pan(ball) ‘ Calculates the pan for a ball based on the X position on the table. “table1” is the name of the table
Dim tmp
tmp = ball.x * 2 / table1.width-1
If tmp >= 0 Then
If (tmp > 0.83511) Then Pan = Csng(tmp ^10) Else Pan = Csng(0.165)
Elseif tmp < 0 Then
If (tmp < -0.83511) Then Pan = Csng(-((- tmp) ^10)) Else Pan = Csng(-0.165)
End If
End Function(My changes are the checks against .83511 (inverse of .83511^10 is +/-.165)).
Was dialing down the problematic range, was .165 on STTNG I think because there were sound effects closer to the top of the playfield. Why that matters in a L/R Pan() function is a freakin mystery. Its like if the sound spatially comes from the center of the table close to the top of the playfield the surround sound system is shifting things to the backbox (front speakers in surround sound terms). I’ve been looking to see if Windows/Realtek has any kind of “surround enhancement” that might be happening. No luck.
At least I have an option to fix it in may favorite tables. I wish there was a way to programatically go through every vpx file, extract the script, replace the Pan function with mine, and put it back in the vpx file.
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Hmm. I haven’t experienced this myself. Or, at least, noticed it. But, there is possible to do this “fix” for each and every table. Just create a vbs export wrapper so that if you don’t have the table script exported already the wrapper will load the table and do a -exportvbs. Very much what Joey2001 has mentioned a few times, exporting *.pov. Then, after getting all the scripts out, create a program that searches for that pan and then patch it to become what you want. I do export all the scripts this way. The wrapper part. And I did create a script to patch something in that direction myself. What PMax mentions here https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=46038&p=468334 – I’ve patched and put into a branch on my end, waiting to be tested and applied.
It would however be a much better solution to get what you are saying, verified as a problem, and fixed in vp itself. You’re sure that this isn’t related to the impactor code ?
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I’ll check out those links, thanks. I removed all the DOF stuff early on to be sure it wasn’t messing with anything.
If no one else can reproduce this issue then I imagine the vpx team would say (rightly so) that the issue is with my setup and I can’t really argue with that.
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I haven’t tried to turn off the exciters myself – yet. Haven’t had the cab on for a couple of days. Might do that later today since there where a couple of favorite tables updated. What version are you using for AFM ? Need to make sure we’re on the same one. I know that the bumpers are loud on a few of them, which I do like. But, as I’ve said. Haven’t really tested sound for any “leakage”.
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I just tried AFM JPSalas 3.0 (was using a much older one) and its the same as expected. I went ahead and ordered a USB 7.1 external sound card thing (my mini PC doesn’t have room for another card). Will get here some time Monday and I will try that. If its the same then I guess I’ll find some use for it in some other build I do after the pinball cabinet (2023 or so at the rate I am going).
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USB external sound card result seems to be the same. Cut off might be a little different, but with the values I had for STTNG my fix still worked. But without the script fix you still hear some upper playfield sounds out of the backbox. So its either a bug that other people should see (but perhaps don’t care) or its something in my Windows configuration (no idea what) or something introduced by Equalizer APO (I’ll try removing it). Guess the last thing I can try is move my son’s computer in and hook up it to the cab and see what it does.
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EDIT: Spoke too soon it seems.
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Oh ? What was that about ? :)
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Oh nothing…. heh. I started digging into the VPX code, figured it would be easier for me to fix it there once even if it was a personal build for VPX than to have to change every table. I thought I found a smoking gun. Indeed I fixed the backbox issue, but it also made it so no sound came out of the side surround. I read up on DirectSound3D and my fix was certainly wrong. I figured out a bit how it works though. Am going to continue down the path of implementing my fix in VPX but also a deeper investigation as to why in the hopes of a more logical fix that might get approved (I have an idea, there aren’t actually that many parameters in DirectSound3D to mess with). I still need to try it with my son’s PC as I am still puzzled why I am the only one to notice.
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Well. You are not anymore. I didn’t turn off the exciters. But, I fired up a surprisingly well done MrDoom table. The table has very nice SSF, but, the spinner came clearly out a bit loud compared to the other sounds. I had already planned to test your theory so instead I stole your pan fix code and ran the table with it. And, I agree. We should make @toxie aware of this issue. He is after all going ( hopefully ) look at some sound issues that has arrived with 10.7beta, like earlier mentioned. I’m sure he would love to get pull requests from you if you figure something out. I’m sorry you had to go to the step of buying yourself a external 7.1 usb sound adapter only to be believed on your findings.
Link to the MrDoom table : https://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/mrdoom-recel-1979/
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Nice to know I am not crazy :). I’ll find a use for the external sound card. I was able to reproduce the vbs fix directly in vpx, but its a much larger range than I expected there once all the math was done. I poked a few extra things during quick work breaks (my home covid office is about 2 feet from the pincab) and didn’t see any improvements. DirectSound3D is rather old and what tutorials I can find basically end up saying you just have to fiddle with it until you get something you like. Maybe I will have more luck tonight.
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