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It doesn’t move for me. Looking at the code it shouldn’t either. There isn’t much code involved so I should be able to sort it out eventually. If it worked the way it was supposed to a sound effect flagged backglass should behave more or less the same as if you had selected 2 channel stereo in your audio options. I haven’t tried setting that option and seeing if table effects played anything out the exciters (it shouldn’t).
I believe the intended difference is that if the sound effect is a multichannel format (ogg file) then the sound tracks will be honored and played on the channels so encoded. The position slider should have no effect, “positioning” is encoded in the file. If its a simple mono/stereo track it should play on the backbox speakers. The exception I can think of is if your windows driver has some kind of enhancement that tries to play stereo out of all channels to fill in. I would expect you would see that too if playing videos/music tracks if it was happening but not necessarily.
Thats my impression of how it is supposed to work. I could very well be wrong, but it seems logical.
I’ve gotten a little too distracted by this hobby and need to focus a bit on my paying job, but I will poke around at this as much as I am able.
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Hmm. Well, there must be related to sample quality too then I guess. I’m pretty sure I tried that during the JP beta table I had. I pushed all the sounds to the backglass and was getting all to be played at the exciters. I would have to try that procedure again. And well, it was all wav files – thank god. I can hardly hear *.ogg at all.
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I still can’t get the sounds moved to backglass in 10.7 by switching to backglass and moving the slider all the way to back, curious if anyone but wiesshund can?
Actually it does not sound like having 3D sound from the backglass is of any use, either you want it there or you choose to play it on the playfield?
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The sounds that I am experimenting with are just that, experiments. There are and will continue to be sounds that I will want to be able to move to the backglass in the future, like voices.
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No, I agree, I don’t see why you want to anything coming from the backglass to simple stereo like the regular old 2 channel. For vpm, I tend to use it for knocker, chimes (not always) and ringer ( taxi, black knight ) and I’m sure there are something I’ve forgotten about right now. For originals, which I don’t play much I admit. The music and callouts. Some tables have hit-sound effects that are unrealistic to a pinball machine. That means I either don’t play it, or they get moved to the backglass like they where coming from the rom. Imo though, all tables should have regular pinball sounds from the pf/table area.
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I think the idea is for original tables to have an option to have surround sound effects, like maybe a jet flying around. Its an interesting idea if you are a desktop user with actual surround sound rather than an SSF cabinet setup. I don’t think those effects will necessarily sound great around an SSF setup… at the very least you might have to adjust the volume down. For my setup I am trying to really boost the playfield sound (i want the option for it sound as loud as an actual solenoid firing) but I am afraid of other things getting directed there and coming out BLAZING loud.
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The good news is that I think I found the spot causing issues for WAV files at least. The bad news is the obvious fix causes VPX to crash. I’m probably going to have to spend a little time learning how to run vpx from within the visual studio debugger before making more progress. I really don’t know what I am doing here so its an adventure!
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That is when you ask the other devs for help. I noticed even a couple of crashes from using the audio preferences alone. That is something new. I can’t remember that happening ever with earlier versions. 10.7 is of course using a lot of new GUI elements and Fuzzel has tirelessly been trying to iron out all those for the whole 10.7 lifecycle. Not that I would notice that easily. if the sound is working, you have no reason visiting those preferences. Maybe it does some sound related as I’m pressing the ok button and that is the reason for the crash – not the GUI ? Just a wild thought maybe.
Very happy to hear that you see signs of the issue. Stay away from ogg files for the moment though is my advice. Right now I don’t trust them to blow my speakers out. Maybe I should install some kind of vst plugin via APO, to prevent that. Come to think about it. Maybe using EQ APO, could help you to get where you want with that boosting of pf sound ?
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I got a proof of concept working. I need to compare it to how 10.6 worked to be sure I did the right thing.
Basically 10.7 handles .WAV files the same as 10.6 did (with DirectSound), I didn’t really notice this before and begs the question as to why my enhancement implementation was noticeably different between the two. Also means I didn’t test the code path that uses bass.dll, so who knows what it will do. In any event with the way things were done by the time it gets to the fallback routine for playing wav files it had lost the flag telling it that it was destined to the backglass so it instead played per normal settings. Fixing that resulted in sound coming out of both backbox and exciters. The reason for that was the system was already primed to use DirectSound3D based on the audio mode selected. So if you wanted to play backglass only you have to set the 3D fade all the way front. With that done it seems to work. Possibly the first fix and requiring the fade control in the sound manager would also work, but I don’t think that should be required? I’ll look at 10.6 for guidance.
I think this is the right behavior and the positional controls should probably disable the fade control and set it to 0 (while incorrect, would be unused). Alternately it could be allowed and you could place the sound in full surround sound space with the backbox being far front but the number range would be different than sounds set to table because there is essentially another entire half the table added when the backbox is allowed.
In any event thats what I *think* is happening. It’s one block of 5 lines of code to fix. Tomorrow night I will study the 10.6 code to see how it works there and why it doesn’t have the same problem.
This still leaves any issues with OGG files, but that goes down the bass.dll code path which I apparently haven’t used at all yet.
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Hello, can i try your concept ? I have a pincab with 2.1 backglass and 2 ampli 160w for 4 exiters. Thank you
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Hehe … I would like to be a guinea pig too.
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This is that what I have been trying to explain a couple of messages above. 10.7 defaults to 3D sound and 10.6 stereo only. Question is if this is needed/wanted when you use a cab.
I tried opening an original table in 10.7 and of course all backglass sounds has the slider on 0.00 instead of far back. So eventually we would need a migration of all tables moving the slider full back, to make it sound the same as 10.6?
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Or … a setting, that forces it to ;)
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Just an update for the day. My hacked up fix was the wrong way to fix moving the selected table samples to the backbox. I went back to the original thing I thought was “broken” and noticed I had my music volume (which is what is used for backbox volume) turned all the way off so figured the reason I didn’t hear anything with that first fix was because of that. Turns out that was obviously necessary but it was not sufficient to fix the issue. What was happening was the sound was being directed to the center speaker (which doesn’t exist in SSF). You can fix that with EquilizerAPO, but I am going to look for an in code fix. The most complicated fix would be to convert the in memory sample to stereo (duplicate the mono track). 10.6 should have the same issue, so I need to test my setup with 10.6 and see if it does the same thing, if not then its a good bet I should be able to find a code fix without having to duplicate tracks. I was thiiiiiis close to giving up in frustration.
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Like I said before. Don’t burn yourself out on one single problem. This should be enjoyable so, take your time, and get back at it at a later date instead of getting too frustrated about it.
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@njk70, seems your changes is now part of both new releases/beta builds for 10.6 and 10.7
Looking for testing tonight!
Update. The 10.6.1 is missing the enhanced ssf flag. just looked new when I saw it on GitHub.
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Today’s update is short. I wasn’t able to find a simple fix to stop mono samples from playing to the center channel when moved to the backbox when VPX and Windows are in 3D audio modes. However I was able to convert the mono sample into a 2 channel sample on the fly and that seems to work. Tonight will just be testing for side effects of making that change to be sure it doesn’t make any permanent changes to the sample.
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I don’t think an official 10.6.2 build has been made yet.
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On my way to the cab now. I want take the opportunity to thank you the work you’ve done here. If there is one thing I love about my vp cabinet, it is its ability to play directional sound and you’ve improved it with a lot. Thank you – Thank you – Thank you !!
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On my way to the cab now. I want take the opportunity to thank you the work you’ve done here. If there is one thing I love about my vp cabinet, it is its ability to play directional sound and you’ve improved it with a lot. Thank you – Thank you – Thank you !!
Agreed, we are lucky to have you njk70, thanks for your time and work.
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