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  • #143284
    STAT
    Participant
    @stefanaustria
    MemberContributor

    @blacksad with an amazing B2S again :good:  … but 200 MB woah … B-)

     

    #143298
    naeromagus
    Participant
    @naeromagus
    Member

    Thanks for the update on this already great table. I do have one question when i do a post pass the ball goes half way up the playfield? where other games they don’t act like this. Is this just something that happens on a real Totan it’s the one game i never had the chance to play the real thing.

    Just curious please don’t take offense

    Thanks Flupper, Brandon (naeromagus)

    #143304
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    Without being an expert on the subject. I would say that because of other tweaks ( and they are really great), the post pass is suffering a bit. We are still not able to emulate the flippers perfectly.

    #143308
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    Thanks for the update on this already great table. I do have one question when i do a post pass the ball goes half way up the playfield? where other games they don’t act like this. Is this just something that happens on a real Totan it’s the one game i never had the chance to play the real thing.

    Just curious please don’t take offense

    Thanks Flupper, Brandon (naeromagus)

    Post passes don’t always work on every table depending on geometry. They are possible on this table but very difficult. From all the videos I’ve watched, the post passes behave very much as you describe. If anyone has video that shows otherwise, I’d be happy to take a look.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #143313
    Clark Kent
    Participant
    @clarkkent
    MemberContributor

    With my own physics adjustments all flipper tricks are exactly as on a real machine. Two examples:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6wvh0cdzchz0xe/ball1.mov?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mbxison35jlbjr/ball2.mov?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5oh3cnj1gj925n5/Video%2024.08.19%2C%2012%2026%2024.mov?dl=0

    #143314
    Clark Kent
    Participant
    @clarkkent
    MemberContributor

    I have troubles with the new dB2S from blacksad – I only see the middle flasher and nothing else. Does somebody experience that, too? I wonder what that could be…

    #143317
    bord
    Moderator
    @bord
    MembervipContributorModerator

    With my own physics adjustments all flipper tricks are exactly as on a real machine. Two examples:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6wvh0cdzchz0xe/ball1.mov?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mbxison35jlbjr/ball2.mov?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5oh3cnj1gj925n5/Video%2024.08.19%2C%2012%2026%2024.mov?dl=0

    I agree that those flipper moves look cool – but they aren’t realistic to be able to pull off with any consistency unless you are a super-elite pinball player. I’m not a terrible player by any means but tip passes, cradle separations and clean post passes aren’t happening half the time I try them on a real TOTAN. If they are as easy as they appear in the video then I don’t think it is an improvement.

    #143319
    Clark Kent
    Participant
    @clarkkent
    MemberContributor

    I’m a good player… And I play real pinball a lot. I can do the same as in the videos on my Dialed In pinball machine every time I want to.

    #143321
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    :good: What about drop catches ? That is one thing I’m really looking for us to nail.

    #143322
    bord
    Moderator
    @bord
    MembervipContributorModerator

    I’m a good player… And I play real pinball a lot. I can do the same as in the videos on my Dialed In pinball machine every time I want to.

    I hope I never have to face you in a tournament.

    #143328
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    With my own physics adjustments all flipper tricks are exactly as on a real machine. Two examples:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6wvh0cdzchz0xe/ball1.mov?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mbxison35jlbjr/ball2.mov?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5oh3cnj1gj925n5/Video%2024.08.19%2C%2012%2026%2024.mov?dl=0

    I will take a look at these. The good thing about nfozzy’s physics is we have some control over the shot profile. If post passes should be easier, we should be able to address that.

    I’m also open to looking at what can be done for other flipper tricks. I’m happy to work with you Clark Kent on those. Let’s start a PM thread and see what we can do.

    Can you share your flipper settings you use?

    What I’m not willing to do is sacrifice other aspects of game play to allow for flipper tricks. That said, I think we can achieve both.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #143332
    bassgeige
    Participant
    @bassgeige

    I have troubles with the new dB2S from blacksad – I only see the middle flasher and nothing else. Does somebody experience that, too? I wonder what that could be…

    I can remember from yesterday that I was wondering about one flasher also once. I did not check back the timings and was also testing the nvidia ultra low latency mode.

    #143336
    Clark Kent
    Participant
    @clarkkent
    MemberContributor

    With my own physics adjustments all flipper tricks are exactly as on a real machine. Two examples:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6wvh0cdzchz0xe/ball1.mov?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mbxison35jlbjr/ball2.mov?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5oh3cnj1gj925n5/Video%2024.08.19%2C%2012%2026%2024.mov?dl=0

    I will take a look at these. The good thing about nfozzy’s physics is we have some control over the shot profile. If post passes should be easier, we should be able to address that.

    I’m also open to looking at what can be done for other flipper tricks. I’m happy to work with you Clark Kent on those. Let’s start a PM thread and see what we can do.

    Can you share your flipper settings you use?

    What I’m not willing to do is sacrifice other aspects of game play to allow for flipper tricks. That said, I think we can achieve both.

    Let’s Flupper decide what to try. It’s his table. And as there was a lot of hostilities over the years when I tried to improve physics it would be better to let him decide. He has my latest adjustments, please ask him for the time being.

    I’m open to any discussions. I’m not that big fan of too many script influence (because of future compatibility) but if we can reach a new level – why not? There are some things that are very important for me: 1) the ball always rolls relatively slow across the playfield on a real pinball machine (ergo higher playfield friction) – only the coils brutally accelerate it. 2) There must be a coil ramp up as there is one on a real machine, too (I know backhands are suffering from this but that’s the only drawback). 3) Return strength must be lower to be able to do gentle movements of the flippers. 4) And because of the higher ball mass I’m using the strength of the flippers must be much higher (but maybe there is another workaround for this). With all these fundamentals flipper tricks should be possible.

    #143341
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    @clarkkent

    The community feedback on the physics has been overwhelmingly positive.  I’m always open to improvements.  I’ve also not been a proponent of scripting modifications to adjust physics, but nFozzy has done it in a way that’s very non-intrusive, solves for many of the issues @wrd1972 and I have been trying to address for years, and overall produces a much more realistic result.  I played a real TOTAN yesterday and everything from vpx translated to that table.  The aim, timing, and pace of the table were all consistent.  I noted a few minor details that I could adjust, but I couldn’t be happier with how similar the vpx and real version felt.

    That said, I’m not great with flipper tricks and was aware going in that it might be an area for improvement.

    To some of your comments:

    • I’ve been considering increasing playfield friction.  With nFozzy physics, I don’t think the ultra low playfield friction is necessary anymore.  That said, vpx TOTAN has a similar pace the the real TOTAN and might be a tad slower.
    • I’m not a fan of coil ramp up in vpx.  From what I can tell, it just adds flipper lag unless you add massive flipper strength.  What’s the advantage of using it?
    • I’m open to lower flipper return strength.  I can’t do tip passes and didn’t have a good way to test proper return strength.  This should be an easy one to adjust.
    • What’s the advantage of a higher ball mass?  The adjust for the higher flipper strength you’re using?

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #143360
    Clark Kent
    Participant
    @clarkkent
    MemberContributor

    As I said – on a real pinball machine the ball rolls slowly. I’m always using playfield friction between 0.3 and 0.4.

    The coil ramp up is an essential setting. There is no NO coil ramp up on a real machine. Just read the wiki: https://github.com/c-f-h/vpinball/wiki/VP10-Physics

    Lower return strength is important for very fine flipper movements. In combination with the appropriate coil ramp up you get the best flipper control.

    I’m mostly using ball mass 1.7 because in my personal opinion otherwise the ball feels too light. It’s a steel ball and not a wooden one. With a higher flipper strength (I’m between 8000 and 10000 most of the time) you prevent sluggish behavior. But as I said, this is my personal preference.

    Only when all flipper tricks could be done it feels like playing real pinball. I know that most people are happy if they could play regular game but I’m playing precise, drop stopping the ball and do some backhands, do some post passes, using cradle separation to make the most out of multiball, using tip passes, etc.

    #143364
    BorgDog
    Participant
    @borgdog
    MemberContributorvip

    I’m an expert at cradle separating to the outlane, if ya’ll need that tested.  just saying   :yes:

    #143369
    wrd1972
    Participant
    @wrd1972
    MembervipContributor

    Yeah Roth and I beat the flipper trajectory issue to death, seemingly for years. I still very much believe that if there were a “functional” higher friction setting…higher than 1, it would help with that issue. I typically use friction of 1 for every rubber on the field, but anything above 1 seems to have no effect. I would really like to see the flipper issue resolved in the “core”. But until then, fozzy’s flipper mod seems to work very nicely. I know some will argue that 1 is too high. But I would submit you take a real ball and drag it along a real rubber. There is a ton of friction there. And I think that the lack of friction on the flipper tends to send the shot more to the wide side than it really should. I could be wrong, but I think the flippers missing link is higher friction.

     

    I also believe that the low friction on the PF is no longer needed, as well as the higher ball mass. I was certainly a proponent of this a few years ago, but I have returned to a ball mass of 1, and PF friction of .3 – .35.  It just seemed that when I was using  a mass of 1.7, then all of the other physics were simply scaled up. But in the end, and IMO, it played nearly the same  when the ball had a mass of 1, with the physics more normally scaled. I would like to see someone as scientifically as possible, try to prove or disprove this.

     

    Oh and I apply my preferred physics to all 250+ tables on the cab. And on my personal tables, or the ones that are of higher quality, cradle seps, tip passes and post passes work as they should.

     

    My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: MSI Micro-ATX Z390m MOBO, Core I5-9600K CPU @ 3.70GHz, 16GB NVRAM, Nvidia 1660 Super,

    40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, Dual 23" monitors in the backbox , Pinscape w. expansion board, Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support

    #143402
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    @clarkkent Can you get videos of the same flipper behaviors on a real pin?

    I’m going to keep this conversation on the public forum and I will post test files here.  I’d like community feedback on the changes we’re making.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #143406
    JR
    Participant
    @jfr1
    Member

    Damn, this is fascinating to read about and see unfold.  Thanks for letting back-of-the-classroom guys like me tag along.  Much like the amazing Time Warp banana flipper co-op that went on… I understand little, but am learning/listening inch by inch.

    #143408
    rothbauerw
    Moderator
    @rothbauerw
    ModeratorContributorMembervip

    Here’s some video of post passes on TOTAN.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttv5ugep8aqe3d6/Video%20Aug%2027%2C%209%2010%2057%20PM.mov?dl=0

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

Viewing 20 posts - 201 through 220 (of 278 total)
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