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  • #144389
     robertms 
    Participant
    Member

    Great stuff Roth, will experiment tonight! BTW, you should change your sig from “Perpetual updates of Pinball Magic” to “Perpetual updates of VPX physics” ;-)

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  robertms.
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    #144392
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Great stuff Roth, will experiment tonight! BTW, you should change your sig from “Perpetual updates of Pinball Magic” to “Perpetual updates of VPX physics” ;-)

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  robertms.

    Done!  :good:

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144397
     chihua07 
    Participant
    Member

    It seems like the long ramp shots don’t have enough juice. They are slower, compared to the 1.1 release. Example (loading the fireball to hit the genie) Could adjusting for the flipper tricks sacrificed power on the long shot?

    forgive my ignorance on terminology.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #144405
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    It seems like the long ramp shots don’t have enough juice. They are slower, compared to the 1.1 release. Example (loading the fireball to hit the genie) Could adjusting for the flipper tricks sacrificed power on the long shot?

    forgive my ignorance on terminology.

     

    It’s certainly possible.  I haven’t tested these changes on TOTAN yet.  I’m looking to get the behavior and feel a little closer before I start to tune things.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144407
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I think you’ve done a great job Roth. I saw a couple of odd flips in maybe 15 minutes of testing. I was able to kind of double shooting the ball. It was rolling down the flipper right-to-left as I pressed the key and it kind of did a shot like the bottom of the number 8. You know, when you draw that number by hand. In the bottom of the loop. But, I would rather have that happening and be able to have better control. :good:

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    #144432
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    It seems like the long ramp shots don’t have enough juice. They are slower, compared to the 1.1 release. Example (loading the fireball to hit the genie) Could adjusting for the flipper tricks sacrificed power on the long shot?

    forgive my ignorance on terminology.

     

    Yes, the flippers definitely lost some strength.  I’m guessing it’s primarily due to the coil ramp-up setting.  Here’s an updated table.  I increased the strength of the flippers from 2850 to 3350.  I also increased the EOS angle from 6 to 7 and decreased the EOS Torque from 0.3 to 0.25.  This gives the flippers a little more “touch”.  Is it too much?

    I think you’ve done a great job Roth. I saw a couple of odd flips in maybe 15 minutes of testing. I was able to kind of double shooting the ball. It was rolling down the flipper right-to-left as I pressed the key and it kind of did a shot like the bottom of the number 8. You know, when you draw that number by hand. In the bottom of the loop. But, I would rather have that happening and be able to have better control. :good:

    I’m not exactly sure what you’re describing, but it seems like this kind of random behavior should be possible?

    Pinging @benlogan2, @theloafer, and @borgdog.  Would love for you guys to test and provide feedback when you have time.  Of course everyone is welcome to test and provide feedback, just calling out the few I remember being involved in other discussions around flipper behavior.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

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    #144482
     chihua07 
    Participant
    Member

    The changes you made really helped, but I think the flippers still could use a little more strength. I don’t have a real table, but the long shots are a great deal harder to make now compared to 1.1 physics. They still seem like they need a little more..

    #144503
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    The ramp shots aren’t easy on the real machine.  You have to have a clean shot.  Feel free to adjust your flipper strength if you’d like the shots to be easier.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

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    #144507
     robertms 
    Participant
    Member

    @rothbauerw here is some feedback for you. I spent a bunch of time testing your example-nfozzy v1 & v2 and for me your v1 settings felt far more natural than v2. In v1 I could make all the shots, even the ramp shot was possible using basic skills, post passes and other flipper tricks worked fine and felt pretty natural. I disagree with logan’s “flipper power” comments, in v1 the flippers were plenty powerful to make the ramp and orbit shots, and I appreciated the added control and not crazy cannon-like behavior. On the other hand in v2 I was getting frustrated with the ramp shot and overall flipper accuracy, the physics felt more artificial and video game-like. I vote for v1  :good:

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    #144510
     chihua07 
    Participant
    Member

    The ramp shots aren’t easy on the real machine.  You have to have a clean shot.  Feel free to adjust your flipper strength if you’d like the shots to be easier.

    I meant no disrespect.  Not looking for an easier shot.  Just comparing to the original 1.1.  I am learning from this all a great deal. I definitely do not know how fast the ball is supposed to travel through the ramps on the real table.  In the 1.1 physics the ball was faster on the ramps, but I unfortunately do not have access to a real table.   I defer to your guys expertise. Just bringing things up as the forum dictates.  To stimulate discussion.  Hope I haven’t offended.

     

    #144519
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    Sitting on the fence a bit after trying v2 and I think robertms sums it up for me quite well. It is still not a perfect setup. Don’t think it is possible with current VPX code to be honest. I have for a long time been a bit annoyed of my flipper buttons activating very easily. A small key-press and leaf switch is activated. On most real machines, I have to press the button a bit further in before it activates. ( this is of course fixable, and related to my hardware )  I changed the table a bit in order to get a higher percentage of balls that I can try to drop catch. And on both versions I’m able to in a much higher percentage than on most VPX games. What I’m still struggling with is tap passing on your setup. My buttons might partly be responsible for this, but, I doubt that they are all to blame. What I’ve seen is that you really will have to choose one over the other.

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    #144521
     chihua07 
    Participant
    Member

    I have been enjoying version 1 with the flipper strength at 3400.  I got used to a faster ramp. The flipper tricks are fantastic. Thank you.

     

     

    #144562
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    @chihua07 No disrespect taken.  Keep the feedback coming.

    @mophead The power in V1 is fine for the example table, but it not strong enough for making the ramp in the Totan table.  V2 strength is tuned to have a similar velocity profile as the existing flippers on the Totan table.  When you say the physics feel more video game like in V2, can you be more specific?  Because they are too strong, or too much control, or something else?  V2 definitely has more “touch”.  Meaning, it’s easier to tap the ball and get it under control with light flipper presses.  I’m trying to understand if that more or less realistic.

    @thalamus You say you “don’t think it possible with current VPX code”.  Can you eleborate?  What doesn’t feel right or what would you like to see improved?  Regarding tap passes, I’d like to understand if that’s hardware or my settings.  I can easily do tap passes with Clark settings, even on a keyboard.  But that feels way too easy for my.  I’ve always struggled doing tap passes even on a real machine.  Maybe if you could summarize what feels good, what doesn’t feel good and what’s too hard, or what’s not hard enough.  There is definitely tweaking to be done.

    Thanks for the feedback!  Keep it coming!

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144602
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I agree that Clark settings is tap passable, but, the rest of the physics feels “sloppy” and too easy to control. With nFozzy or any setting that I find feels good, I’ve never been able to tap pass. I should add though. That modern flippers (read Stern ) should be less bouncy, I think that the primitive flippers on Diner is more close to modern than most. Modern Stern flippers is harder to control than late 80′ Williams and pre modern Stern. These should have more bounce. On fish tables, keeping up the left flipper on a full plunge should go approx 2/3 of the way up to the boat or the left targets depending on angle and be hard, but not impossible to drop catch.

    Don’t get me wrong though. You are pretty close. Being able to stop the ball coming down the inlane flipping very early and stopping the ball against the sling is possible.

    “Stopping” the ball by tapping it at the correct time, sending it straight up and then trapping it is also possible.

    Post pass is very good too.

    Flick pass is not great, but, I think that has to do with rubber hardness and ball spin. I should add, I see that the flipper is behaving correctly doing very fast flicks without any ball.

    It is mostly tap pass that I find being almost non existent or too hard to do.

    Hope this makes any sense to you.

    #144607
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Thanks Thalamus.  Great feedback.  I think I’m following most of it.

    I’m not taking any of this as criticism.  I want to get this as close as possible if we’re going to add it to TOTAN.

    For flick passes: Try decreasing EOS torque and see if you can find a value that feels more natural/has the right difficulty level.

    Regarding the flippers being less bouncy: Do you mean in an elasticity sort of way or in a springy flipper sort of way?  Meaning, is the flipper deflecting and then launching the ball too high?  If so, I think we can try to address that.  I think I can increase the EOS torque when the flipper is in full up position to reduce/eliminate the springy flipper.  This is done through coding, which I don’t usually like to do, but in my testing with randr, we found real Totan flippers to have much higher hold strength than VPX flippers.  In the past when I’ve tried this, it has caused some weird behavior, but I think I’ve found a workaround that makes it possible.  I also think the weird behavior is a result of a bug in the flipper code, and if the dev’s can fix it, flipper behavior will improve on all tables.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144610
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I’ll have to get back to you on this I guess. But, I have to ask. You are asking for flipper settings where flip pass is working to my satisfaction without caring that once I change, everything else gets broken ? Because that is what I’m seeing and mean is a problem with VP itself.

    #144611
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    No, I do care.  All the settings need to be tuned together to get everything working.

    I just did a little testing on my end.  I don’t think EOS Torque is the issue here.  I think it’s Coil Ramp Up.  It looks to me like it’s taking too long for the flipper to start to move once you release the flipper button.  Lowering the Coil Ramp up some seems to help in that regard.  Try that at 2 instead of three and see if it’s an improvement.  If so, I can work with it from there.

    Edit: 2 might be too low.  Maybe try 2.5.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  rothbauerw.
    #144615
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    Just tried v1 with 2.5 and well. What can I say. It might be partly related to my buttons. I can maybe – if you are use a lot of good will, call what I’m getting a tap pass. It is different between real machines as well. I’m just not very happy with it. Then again, if you look at the list of things I do think is working. I think we should just accept that this is virtual and that emulating the real deal is just very hard.

    #144642
     robertms 
    Participant
    Member

    @mophead The power in V1 is fine for the example table, but it not strong enough for making the ramp in the Totan table.  V2 strength is tuned to have a similar velocity profile as the existing flippers on the Totan table.  When you say the physics feel more video game like in V2, can you be more specific?  Because they are too strong, or too much control, or something else?  V2 definitely has more “touch”.  Meaning, it’s easier to tap the ball and get it under control with light flipper presses.  I’m trying to understand if that more or less realistic.

    @rothbauerw  Just experimented a bunch more with both versions, tried both with coil ramp up at 2.5 and 3.0, and keep coming back to v1 as my favorite. V2 feels more like Pinball Arcade to me, just lacks the perceived flipper “elasticity” that allows for better ball control, feels overall too “stiff” like the ball just shoots off the flippers and gains too much velocity, bounces and zigzags erratically as if it were a hockey puck, is more difficult to aim correctly, therefore the flipper tricks feel more like luck than skill.

    Coil ramp up at 2.5 seems better suited to tip passes, although I agree with Thal they still don’t feel very realistic. Unfortunately on the example table there are not enough opportunities to test the tip passes during game play, not enough obstacles to slow the ball down on the playfield and through the inlanes, you’re almost better off dropping the ball yourself to simulate the right conditions. At 3.0 the coil ramp up works better for drop catches, however at 2.5 they’re still doable so it seems to be a good compromise.

     

    #144672
     wrd1972 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    Roth,

    Can you think of anyway of hacking extra “friction” into the flipper when in the raised position. I have played numerous machines recently and the ball wants to reduce its velocity as it moves across the raised flipper much more than what I have been able to accomplish in VP. Any way to hack a tiny “brake” into it as it rolls up the flipper?

    My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: Dell T3400 workstation with Core2 Quad core 3.0GHZ (Q9650) CPU - 8GB of RAM - Nvidia 760GTX (MSI Twin Frozr)

    40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, 22" upper and 19" lower monitors in the backbox - Virtuapin controller w/ analog plunger - Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support

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