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  • #144673
     wrd1972 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    …to add to my last comment. When I do a successful post pass from left to right. As the ball rolls into the “trap point” and up the flipper. It rolls up the flipper is if its made of diamond meaning that it rolls too fast and smooth, rather than the way it roll if there was a rubber band there.

    Once again I really think one of the missing links is not enough “allowable” friction for the flippers.

    My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: Dell T3400 workstation with Core2 Quad core 3.0GHZ (Q9650) CPU - 8GB of RAM - Nvidia 760GTX (MSI Twin Frozr)

    40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, 22" upper and 19" lower monitors in the backbox - Virtuapin controller w/ analog plunger - Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  wrd1972.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  wrd1972.
    #144680
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Roth,

    Can you think of anyway of hacking extra “friction” into the flipper when in the raised position. I have played numerous machines recently and the ball wants to reduce its velocity as it moves across the raised flipper much more than what I have been able to accomplish in VP. Any way to hack a tiny “brake” into it as it rolls up the flipper?

    Is it friction or gravity?

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144735
     wrd1972 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    Friction.

    Imagine a ball rolling down a metal ramp. It rolls fast.

    Now imagine that same ramp is coated with rubber. The ball is going to roll slower.

     

    I actually did a test on one of my real pins where I used a rubber on the bat, and no rubber on the bat. The intent of no rubber was to simulate a surface that is much harder and therefore faster, than with a rubber. Backhand shots were better with the rubber. And without the rubber, they were wider. I think this has to do with the rubber surface keeping a strong grip on the ball as the bat moves to hit it.

     

    I also tested the ball rolling down the flipper lane and climbing the flipper, then returning to the trap point. With the rubber, the ball was slowed more noticeably with the rubber, compared to without.

     

    I think in VP world, I suspect that the flipper is more on the “harder & faster”  side rather then the “rubber & slower” side, even with a friction setting of 1. I’m aware that the friction can be set higher than 1, but I dont think it has any effect beyond a setting of 1. Maybe if we could get more friction into the flipper, the roll down the lane would be more realistic when the ball climbs the flipper, and the backhand shots would be more accurate. I would love to test this somehow.

     

     

     

    My VP Pincab /MAME Arcade Specs: Dell T3400 workstation with Core2 Quad core 3.0GHZ (Q9650) CPU - 8GB of RAM - Nvidia 760GTX (MSI Twin Frozr)

    40" PF Sony gaming LED TV, 22" upper and 19" lower monitors in the backbox - Virtuapin controller w/ analog plunger - Full DOF - Full MAME arcade support

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  wrd1972.
    #144742
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    @rothbauerw

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ca9ye8atlz5pjxs/example%20nfozzy.vpx?dl=0

    Just ignore the first kickout at start – I didn’t care to fix its kick direction. So, now, just hold the left flipper up. I’ve changed the table difficulty to get a more persistent kicker, believe that is all I’ve changed from the original v1. You will see that the flipper throws the ball quite far up the table. Let is play a few, it varies a bit. Now, mark and move the ballrelease kicker by marking it and moving it either way, 1 keypress to the left or right using the the keyboard arrow. I’m not sure about you guys, but, I think the ball goes too far up the table and when you change the kicker, it looks better if you moved it to the right than if you move it to the left. I’m not expert, but, since we don’t change rubber elasticity in between, there has to be something else that is going on that I just don’t think is right. Personally, I think the flippers are a bit too springy. But, I don’t have a machine at home to verify this with :)

    #144781
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Good feedback guys.  I need a few days of testing and trying a few new things to see what possible and where I think compromises will need to be made.  I do think I’m close, just want to see if I can push things a little bit further.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144782
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    @rothbauerw

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ca9ye8atlz5pjxs/example%20nfozzy.vpx?dl=0

    Just ignore the first kickout at start – I didn’t care to fix its kick direction. So, now, just hold the left flipper up. I’ve changed the table difficulty to get a more persistent kicker, believe that is all I’ve changed from the original v1. You will see that the flipper throws the ball quite far up the table. Let is play a few, it varies a bit. Now, mark and move the ballrelease kicker by marking it and moving it either way, 1 keypress to the left or right using the the keyboard arrow. I’m not sure about you guys, but, I think the ball goes too far up the table and when you change the kicker, it looks better if you moved it to the right than if you move it to the left. I’m not expert, but, since we don’t change rubber elasticity in between, there has to be something else that is going on that I just don’t think is right. Personally, I think the flippers are a bit too springy. But, I don’t have a machine at home to verify this with :)

    Yep, this is the springy flipper I was referring to.  I think I have a fix for this already working.  I’ll try to post another table this weekend for you to test.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #144918
     The Loafer 
    Participant
    Member

    hey!  just wanted to say I’ve been tied up this week but will get a chance to test this out Sunday if you still need a looksee. Sorry for my unavailability, wife retired and that seems to have made me MORE busy lol

    #145104
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    I spent some time today at The Pinball Lounge in Ovieda, FL.  The primary objective was to test and observe flipper physics.  I was able to test on a number of new Williams/Bally’s including Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, Indiana Jones, Monster Bash, Creature from the Black Lagoon, The Addams Family, TwilightZone, and White Water.  Here are some of my observations:

    • Tap passes were nearly impossible on all of them.  I was able to generate shorter flips on most, but they all had too much power to just bounce to the opposite flipper.  I was able to do tip passes (off the tip with the flipper down) and a softer flip did help prevent the ball from going too high up the opposite inlane.
    • Post passes were most successful off the bottom of the post.  I was able to make a few post passes off the inside of the post, but it was a risky shot.  Many times it came across the lane too hard or veered off into the playfield.  In addition, post passes were not easy.  They took practice to do them consistently and even then, I missed often.
    • The machines varied greatly at how much and how easy it was to control the ball with the flipper up.  In general, light tapping was mostly difficult and just a tad too long between taps and the ball was out of the control.  I would say version one of the nfozzy example table was closest to what I observed.
    • One definite issue with the nfozzy flippers are the backhands.  They are much too powerful.  Most tables had pretty weak backhands, although a few tables I was able to make ramps.  But I still wouldn’t consider the backhand powerful or high velocity.  Clarks flippers do a much better job and behave much more realistically in this regard.  I believe there’s one of two factor driving this behavior.  It’s either the EOS angle or the flipper mass.  Clark uses a much lower flipper mass than the ball mass so I’m going to look there first.
    • Last is the strength of the flipper when held up and struck by a high velocity ball.  The flippers on all these table were extremely strong in this position.  None of them were springing.  Although with very high velocities, you could see them flex a little (randr and I observed this in our studies and this appears to be flexing of the mechanicals, not movement of the rod in the solenoid.  This generally appeared to dampen the ball instead of acting as a spring.

    I think I’m making good progress and expect to have an updated table tomorrow with adjustments for my learnings.

    A few additional notes.  I also spend some time on Funhouse, Bride of Pinbot, and Wizard.  I was able to do tap passes on Funhouse but not Bride of Pinbot.  Post passes were very difficult on Bride of Pinbot.  Funhouse had by far the most control and post passes were also easier than most tables.  Wizard was a little difficult to do post passes, but tap passes were very easy.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #145105
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    One other note, I could definitely see ball slow down on the flipper, consistent with wrd’s description above.  I agree that it appears to be high friction causing this behavior.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #145106
     bord 
    Participant
    MembervipContributor

    You’re doing God’s work, man. Keep it up.

    #145134
     naeromagus 
    Participant
    Member

    I glad to see i lit a fire. Thank you for you continued dedication to a much more true to life physics representation  :yahoo:

    #145230
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Attached is version 3.  I’m hoping this is pretty close, but that’ll depend on the comments I get from the community.  This should address the springy flipper.  I’m curious what folks think of the backhand behavior.

    Please give this some testing.  In addition to your comments, I’d also appreciate a “Yay” or “Nay” vote as to whether you’d like to see these settings in the next version in TOTAN.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    Attachments:
    #145244
     BorgDog 
    Participant
    MemberContributorvip

    These seem decent, can post pass, alley pass, can backhand to a reasonable angle, but to be honest it is just really hard to tell for sure without it being in a real table to see how it compares to the real thing, or at least ‘a’ real thing as not every machine plays the same for sure.

    What I want to know is why do I get so many ball drop sound effects when the ball hits the flipper?  is the vp engine really bouncing the ball there enough to get that effect, or is the ball drop routine too sensitive? I don’t know that I ever get ball hop enough to make noise on machines I play.

    #145257
     Clark Kent 
    Participant
    MemberContributor

    The backhands are way too weak, flipper tricks are not very realistic. I think the playfield friction is too low but I think this is not the only thing that needs to be adjusted. Did you play on a real machine for some time as suggested?

    I think I’ll ask my son to record a small movie when playing on my machine…

    #145270
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I’m a bit torn on this one. Great to see that you fixed the flipper tip problem ! I understand why CK is saying that the flipper tricks isn’t perfect, but, I think it is better than what we’ve seen in a long time. Just for fun I decided to see what was needed in order to do a tap pass with your settings and a coil ramp up of approx 7 is where you can start to get that trick to work semi-realistic. Guess that explains why I think it will be impossible to get perfect flippers.

    #145323
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    These seem decent, can post pass, alley pass, can backhand to a reasonable angle, but to be honest it is just really hard to tell for sure without it being in a real table to see how it compares to the real thing, or at least ‘a’ real thing as not every machine plays the same for sure.

    What I want to know is why do I get so many ball drop sound effects when the ball hits the flipper?  is the vp engine really bouncing the ball there enough to get that effect, or is the ball drop routine too sensitive? I don’t know that I ever get ball hop enough to make noise on machines I play.

    I agree it’s easier to test on a real table.  For those providing feedback, I’ll add these to TOTAN and provide a link in PM.  Might not be until early next week.

    In terms of the ball drop sounds, this is definitely a vp physics engine thing.  I don’t think the script is too sensitive.  The sounds might be exaggerated if that’s what you mean.  I know on my tables I’ve adjusted the volume component of the script to be a more realistic where these should be more of a faint tap.

    I’m a bit torn on this one. Great to see that you fixed the flipper tip problem ! I understand why CK is saying that the flipper tricks isn’t perfect, but, I think it is better than what we’ve seen in a long time. Just for fun I decided to see what was needed in order to do a tap pass with your settings and a coil ramp up of approx 7 is where you can start to get that trick to work semi-realistic. Guess that explains why I think it will be impossible to get perfect flippers.

    Are you looking for an EM type tap pass?  For this era machine, I don’t think tap passes are possible. I know I wasn’t able to get anywhere near a tap pass on any of the newer machines I tested.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #145324
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    The backhands are way too weak, flipper tricks are not very realistic. I think the playfield friction is too low but I think this is not the only thing that needs to be adjusted. Did you play on a real machine for some time as suggested?

    I think I’ll ask my son to record a small movie when playing on my machine…

    I find your feedback less than helpful.  Quite frankly I think you’re trolling.  Not only did I test on real machines, I said so with quite a bit of detail only a few posts above.

    https://vpinball.com/forums/topic/tales-of-the-arabian-nights-physics-discussion/page/3/#post-145104

    Telling me you don’t think that the flipper tricks aren’t very realistic with no explanation?  What do I do with that?  Try to guess what you mean?  How about some specifics?

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

    #145332
     Thalamus 
    Moderator
    ContributorMemberModerator

    Eh. No, I’m not talking about EM, though I agree, on those older flippers it is easier to do. Deadpool a few weeks back new enough for you ? However. Don’t focus on it. With the setting of 7, it is just a example on why I say that I don’t think all flipper tricks will be possible to do without some kind of flipper change to VP itself.

    #145344
     robertms 
    Participant
    Member

    @rothbauerw I actually like v3 settings a lot, by far my favorite so far. Firm flipper feel with good ball control, predictable behavior, not overly powerful, just right. Had a couple of funky backhands where I thought to myself “that was odd”, maybe the trajectory was a bit off but never thought they were too weak. Overall I’m really liking where you’re heading with this  :good:

    #145370
     rothbauerw 
    Participant
    ContributorMembervip

    Eh. No, I’m not talking about EM, though I agree, on those older flippers it is easier to do. Deadpool a few weeks back new enough for you ? However. Don’t focus on it. With the setting of 7, it is just a example on why I say that I don’t think all flipper tricks will be possible to do without some kind of flipper change to VP itself.

    Good, just want to make sure we’re looking for the same thing. Had a chance to play more real machines last night. I agree this might be one we have to live with.

    @rothbauerw I actually like v3 settings a lot, by far my favorite so far. Firm flipper feel with good ball control, predictable behavior, not overly powerful, just right. Had a couple of funky backhands where I thought to myself “that was odd”, maybe the trajectory was a bit off but never thought they were too weak. Overall I’m really liking where you’re heading with this  :good:

    I think I might know what’s happening here. I’ll take a look and see if I can resolve it.

    Current Project: Perpetual updates of VPX physics.

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