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  • #135961 Report
    bschaberg21
    Participant
    @bschaberg21
    Member

    Is this the only thing that needs to be change in the equalizerAPO? Does anything need to be changed in the Peace config?

    I currently am getting all sounds to the correct speakers. Just no bass to the exciters.

    Stage: pre-mix
    Copy: SUB=0.25*RL+0.25*RR+0.25*SL+0.25*SR
    Channel: SUB
    Filter 0: ON LP Fc 150 Hz

    Stage: post-mix
    Copy: L=0.50*L+SUB
    Copy: R=0.50*R+SUB

    ** IMPORTANT **
    Turn the SUB channel ON in the windows speaker config even if you’re not using it. This gives us a channel where we can filter the sub-bass before mixing it back with L+R.

     

    BSchaberg21

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    #143648 Report
    Rudedogg43
    Participant
    @rudedogg43

    Hey guys, quick couple questions. As you remember, I have 4 excitors and 2 computer speakers with sub.

    1. Are you supposed to hear sounds come from each individual excitor or each pair at a time (each flipper has own sound or front excitors for each flipper)?

    2. If each excitors is supposed to display their individual sound on a table, how would I achieve this?
    <p style=”padding-left: 30px;”>Thanks in advance</p>

    #143744 Report
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I should know this, but, I’ve never had to really test if there is any sound leakage going to the other speakers. You have to think of it this way. If the sample is a stereo sample it has data for both speakers. If it is mono, it doesn’t. So, I expect that you do get a faint sound on the opposing speaker, but, dependant on how high your volume is set you don’t really hear it. All I know is that when a sound is told to be played, lets say, in the upper right corner, that’s where I “hear” it to originate from in that my left, right exciter is doing almost all the work.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145242 Report
    K.Rouge
    Participant
    @k-rouge

    Hi,
    i have a few questions regarding the volume differences of SSF / sound effects of different tables.
    I’m new to VPinball and SSF, but my installation is running fine so far (Win10 64bit, 7.1 onboard Realtek sound WITHOUT realtek drivers (generic windows hd audio drivers), 3 Lepy amps, 4 exciters, 2 Speakers in the backbox + one subwoofer in the cab.) 7.1 sound and SSF is working fine as far as i can say. Tables like AC/DC and Diner show that nicely.
    However, i wonder why different tables have such differences in how loud the effects are coming through the exciters. To be honest (now that I think about it) I’m not sure if I speak of SSF only, or the combination of SSF and ‘normal’ table sound effects that i experience through the exciters. To clarify: I’m not after the volume difference of SSF effects and the other table sound effects within a table, but rather the volume differences in between different tables.
    Effects in ‘Diner’ for example are rather loud (nearly too loud in comparison with other tables) although i like the effects of Diner a lot. ‘AC/DC’ is just fine. A different example is Attack from Mars. All (SSF) effects there are much quieter in comparison to Diner & AC/DC.
    I’m aware that table scripts need to be adapted (or written in the correct way in the first place) to use SSF properly. (Also i’m aware of this https://github.com/sverrewl/vpxtable_scripts).

    To my understanding, we are talking about 3 different parts (leaving out analog volume adjustment through the amps):
    1. Rom sound
    2. Table sound effects
    3. SSF sound effects

    1. Rom sound is controlled only through manufacturer specific settings (coin door open, 8+9 key).
    2. Table sound effects can have different volumes because every/many table scripts are written differently. Is this already the answer to it all? You have to adjust volume table by table?
    3. SSF sound effects. This is controlled by DOF. Shouldn’t the SSF effects all have the same volume across tables (because of DOF doing it)? Or is volume still influenced how the effects are triggered through the table scripts?

    I know there is PinVol. But so far, i have avoided installing and testing it, because i wanted to go step by step and leave out too many knobs to turn (keep it simple and stupid). Is this the way to go to equalize the volume across tables? Does that cover Rom volume and SSF volume as well?

    One final question: at what level you keep the rom volumes? At max (31, 63, depending on the manufacturer)?

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145252 Report
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    We agree that there is 3 or 4 different alternatives. But, I name them a bit differently to you. SSF pr. example has little to do with DOF. I have a night setting in my cab where I can turn off the toys like solenoids and shaker motors. I still have SSF IMO. We agree upon rom sound. That is what will always be there as long as you run pinmame and isn’t using a hacked rom where the sound is muted or if you are missing the correct file. Then table sound effects, which I call SSF.  SSF because if the code is taking advantage of the 9th parameter of the playsound call, then we will be able to put the sound not only in the x axis, but also in y. Technically, even if you don’t use the 9th parameter, it is still SSF, only not taking advantage of the y axis. Combined, you can pinpoint the sound. What is different though is if the table author have put in samples that typically is sounds that is played in the backglass or music, and left in the sound manager as “table” instead of “backglass”. For those that have 2.1 setup, it doesn’t really matter. The sound will, depending on your preferences be played in the backglass anyway. For those that have a more advanced speaker setup, it will come out wrong. In addition to these two. There is at least 3rd and a 4th alternative. Sound files living inside music folder or in pup-packs.

    I see why you call DOF – SSF, and it isn’t completely wrong, It is triggered in most cases by the same line in the table script. For adjusting and volume. I must admit that I could probably have done a better job here. How high I put the rom sound depends on when I start to hear distortion and by experience I never push it at max. I use the amps to increase the table sounds with. Some roms, often older Sterns I’ve pressed F12 and put in a minus 6 to minus 8 value so the rom sound is reduced. You say you don’t want to use PinVol, and this is the exact reason why I don’t care too much to fine tune the tables individually. PinVol does that for me. If I didn’t have this program. I probably would have downloaded a mobile app and fine tuned all the tables. But, honestly PinVol does all this for me, in a very efficient way, so I highly recommend that you change your ways and take a second look at this program :yes:

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145309 Report
    RustyCardores
    Moderator
    @rustycardores
    MemberModerator

    SSF is controlled by regular tables sounds.  The volume of these sounds vary with the original sound sample and with any level the table author has applied.

    SSFImpactor (an add-on to SSF) is controlled by DOF and these sounds are independent of the table sounds and the author’s set levels. So these will remain a constant across all tables.

    Generally I find that tables are pretty even across the board volume wise, but for those tables not quite on par I have quick access to separate volume controls for my Windows master volume and for my BG amp.  Between these two I can quickly adjust things while leaving the actual SSF amp levels untouched. (Don’t want to mess with these as they are finely tuned for balance and fade)

    EDIT: If you don’t want to go Pinsound, there is another technique of setting all your table’s Mechanical Sounds volume slider to a lower setting and then increasing your amp levels to a new norm to compensate.  Having all tables set lower means that if you have a quiet table, your have room to increase the mechanical sounds of any singular table. I use to use this method when I first created SSF, but now I don’t bother and simply adjust on the fly as mentioned above.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145367 Report
    K.Rouge
    Participant
    @k-rouge

    Thalamus and RustyCardores, thanks for your answers!
    Sorry, i wrote SSF when i really meant SSFImpactor! Indeed, i forgot about this differentiation myself. So, yes. SSF is about positional (table) sound in the first place. Also as a quick clarification: I do not intend to avoid PinVol per se or against better advice. I just thought, I keep it as simple as possible and see how far I come without something on top of what’s already there. Seems i reached that point…
    So with PinVol, you adjust volume per table *as a whole* (including rom sound volume, table sound volume and SSFImpactor volume). Following this way of doing means:
    a) You adapt the rom sound volume (through coin door + 8/9) only as a second step. (Until now, i thought of doing it the other way around)
    b) You cannot adjust SSFImpactor volume vs. table sound volume (which might not be a real problem anyway. Just for completeness).
    c) There is no need for changing anything in table scripts

    Btw. I also had the feeling that going to the max of e.g. 31 rom volume (0 – 31 range) leads to distortions. So i usually set it to 26 (or 55 where the max is 63). Reasonable? Might be different, table to table anyway when I follow the above procedure in the future.

    RustyCardores, i didn’t fully understood your last paragraph. How can i access the ‘table’s Mechanical Sounds volume slider’? Is this a popup dialog, VPinMame provides? Similarly, what dialog does F12 (what Thalamus mentioned) bring up? Visual Pinball audio options? Per table? Stored and restored automatically?
    So you adjust volume by hand each time you switch a table? (Which is ok) I just want to understand.

    There is a second aspect to it: Table authors used different sounds for things. For example, i recently wondered how different the flippers of one particular table sounded. Now the flipper sound (and SSF ‘impact’) is of a bit lesser importance than for example the bumpers (for me personally). I understand that tables sound differently (e.g. old EM tables vs. SS tables for various reasons). Now, since i’m a VPinball newbie, i might be terribly mistaken and all of the different sounds of tables is fully intentional and very authentic. But potentially, many of the tables would sound (and feel) better if the same sounds (and volume) would have been used. For example many of the tables of the same area. Right? Or totally wrong?
    See point ‘c)’ above. I was wondering if the best (at least theoretically) would be if the authors revisit their tables and agree to a set of common sounds and volumes…

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145375 Report
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    You say your a newbie but, you’ve understood most perfectly. The F12 is for some roms/pinmame a way to adjust the sound with. I use it as a quick way to lower the rom with instead of fiddling with whatever keys that machine type uses. Does not work on all type of machines, so that is maybe why it is confusing to you. SSFImpactor, it is a cool thing that I don’t have any experience with. I’m struggling well enough as it is keeping the nudges real when I turn on my DOF and adding even one more thing would make me have to adjust it all over again. I don’t really want that. Love how my cab now plays and to be honest, most of the time I play without DOF enabled if my wife is home anyway. Its for those days when she leaves and I’ve got beer ready in the fridge ;)

    Just focus on getting the sound from the rom, match the sound from the rest – maybe you need to export and import some sounds from another table. It all depends on author and your settings. Then use PinVol as a main volum knob if you like. It is designed to remember a tables setting so if you have lets say all the tables tuned almost to the same level, you can increase the master volume of PinVol up and all sounds will increase, still keeping their individual settings and ratio.

    Just experiment, you seem to have understood, now it is just a question of gathering some experience on your own. As I’ve said before. No setup is the same, or at least very few, so it is very much something you have to figure out yourself. Takes a bit of time at first, but, after a while it becomes second nature.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145398 Report
    RustyCardores
    Moderator
    @rustycardores
    MemberModerator

    RustyCardores, i didn’t fully understood your last paragraph. How can i access the ‘table’s Mechanical Sounds volume slider’? Is this a popup dialog, VPinMame provides?

    Open a table in VPX Editor and have look in the Options panel.  You will see two sound sliders. They are set to 100 by default, but if you set all your tables to 70 (for example) as default, you would then have room to move individual tables up or down to equalise levels across all tables.  You will need more amp volume to compensate for the lower settings, but it will afford you the control in both up and down direction…… which the default at 100 does not, as it only allows you to go down.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #145440 Report
    K.Rouge
    Participant
    @k-rouge

    Ok. The audio options in Visual Pinball while editing…
    I thought you mean something that’s accessible while playing a table. Makes sense.
    Thanks to both of you!

    #146599 Report
    MillionMan
    Participant
    @millionman

    This seems like such a huge upgrade!!!! i just ordered 4 Exciters on Ebay. I am a bit confused about the Amps! do we need 3 total?

    on the diagram 2 says 2.0 and the other one says 2.1 . Would i bee good with 3 of these:  Link on EBAY

     

    Thanks!

    #146601 Report
    RustyCardores
    Moderator
    @rustycardores
    MemberModerator

    This seems like such a huge upgrade!!!! i just ordered 4 Exciters on Ebay. I am a bit confused about the Amps! do we need 3 total? on the diagram 2 says 2.0 and the other one says 2.1 . Would i bee good with 3 of these

    SSF can be installed a number of ways, so the method you pick determines the amps required. The basic setups are….

    The ‘Rusty Method’ uses 2.1 amps – this allows you to have the side exciters plus a sub woofer or shaker both front and back of your cab.

    The ‘Rob Method; uses 2.0 amps – this again allows you to have the side exciters, but because there is no bass output for a sub, PEACE/EQAPO software is used to direct/share that bass to the main sub that you are using for the backglass sounds.

    Those 838 amps listed do the job quite well and are what I consider the “entry level” amps.  I have been using them myself since day one, but did need to replace one as the speaker terminals simply fell apart. The price was right though and I had a spare. If they fall apart again I will move to something a little better quality. ;)

    For the backglass, regardless of the method you use for SSF, definitely get the 2.1 amp so that you have a speakers and sub. (so yes, that is 3 amps in total)

    **Note: I don’t use a 3rd amp as such for the backglass.  I run a set of computer speakers ie 2 speakers & sub…. these have the amp built in.

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    #148527 Report
    giubby84
    Participant
    @giubby84

    Hello guys. Hopefully someone will be able to help me.

    I have an SSF Rusty method configuration with two bass shaker TT25-8, 4 dayton exciters, 3 lepay 2.1 and standard sub and speaker for the backglass, using the 7.1 motherboard sound card.

    I configured everything in widows settings as shown in the Rusty method and everything works fine with a standard SSF and now that i have also bass shakers i wanted to “upgrade” to SSF Impactor. Following the official SSF Impactor guide, since i have already a DOF cabinet file (due to led trips and led matrix already installed), i just configured everything into DOF config as shown in the guide. I added SSF impactor options into the cabinet.xml and all toys exactly as described in the guide. I obviously copied all generated DOF Config tool files into direct output config folder, but when i test the SSF impactor sounds on both direct output tester or playing some table, the only additional sound i have is a quite ugly bass shaker sound. There is no difference between toys, i can’t hear bumpers or shaker but just a single sound. I attached the Attack from Mars direct config tester. I have installed DirectOutput R3 last version that should include SSF impactor stuff.

    Someone can just point to me where to look to perform some additional test?

    Attachments:
    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #148534 Report
    tenhaken
    Participant
    @tenhaken

    I am right there with you on this one.  I too have the rusty method and followed the guide for impactor. Not getting any noticeable feedback from the BST. The output tester results in some disturbing noise that does not appear to be even coming from the shaker(s).

    One thing I saw mentioned that is not in the published guide on the SSF FB site is that you need to copy bass.dll to the root of the direct output folder. I did so with no change in the result.

    SSF generally working great just not getting feedback from the two shakers on the .1 of the two 2.1 lepy amps even when utilizing impactor. Only thing that I can think of is to adjust Peace EQ to be bass heavy on the side and rear channels so it cuts over to the .1 of the amp more often with the onboard lepy crossover. Haven’t tried that yet though.

    #148550 Report
    giubby84
    Participant
    @giubby84

    I am right there with you on this one.  I too have the rusty method and followed the guide for impactor. Not getting any noticeable feedback from the BST. The output tester results in some disturbing noise that does not appear to be even coming from the shaker(s).

    One thing I saw mentioned that is not in the published guide on the SSF FB site is that you need to copy bass.dll to the root of the direct output folder. I did so with no change in the result.

    SSF generally working great just not getting feedback from the two shakers on the .1 of the two 2.1 lepy amps even when utilizing impactor. Only thing that I can think of is to adjust Peace EQ to be bass heavy on the side and rear channels so it cuts over to the .1 of the amp more often with the onboard lepy crossover. Haven’t tried that yet though.

    Concerning the bass.dll i moved it but the only thing that changed is that i can now you direct output tester but the sound didn’t change.

    Unfortunately i don’t have experience in sound balance.

    #157617 Report
    PinWiz99
    Participant
    @pinwiz99

    So I’m a recent member of the SSF tribe. After awhile of going back and forth whether I should or i shouldn’t i finally pulled the trigger on Parts-Express when a good coupon code popped up.

    So I went with 4 x hdn-8 exciters and 1 Lepai 2020ti amp, adding to the pre-existing Logitech Z313 2.1 setup i was using for overall audio before. I made a mistake on the amp since it’s only 2.0 but after a few weeks of use, I don’t think I need the Bass shakers in my mini and also I don’t have the room to add one. If i decide to swap out amps, I’ll probably think of adding puck exciters. For now thos it’s great.

    Since I’m running it off 1 amp, I’ve wired the HDN-8s in parallel, 2 per channel so it drops the ohms down to 4. Not sure if that makes a difference for these amps *shrug*

    On the software side of things it took me a minute messing with the Realtek software and VPX sound options till i finally got something that works. In Realtek I set my audio set up to Quadrophonic so the windows “sees” only 4 speakers and in VPX I selected 7.1. This gave me the most oomf in regards to sound without having to jack up my amp. I’m not to keen on this one and wish I had gone with the Lepy but I’ll end up changing it out soon. With my configuration i only gotta put the amp about halfway to really get some good feedback. When I tried putting the speakers in 5.1 or 7.1 I was having to crank my amp higher so I went with the Quad set up. Because It’s a mini the sounds are spot on. i feel the bumpers and hear them correctly. might be my brain but it’s working. I’ve also gone about uniforming all sounds on most tables, so they all have the same impact.

    So now comes APO software. I’d previously installed it but i see I’m missing Peace to tie it all together? I’m still lost as to if i truly need it, because as is it’s great, so i’m wondering what more benefits adding APO/Peace will bring and if there’s some sort of drop in config file.

    Thanks!

    #157651 Report
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    I don’t know how to describe the APO/Peace better than it gives you a lot of more control. Is it needed ? Not, if you’re happy with what you’ve got already. Will it improve your setup. Most probably. Do I have settings that I could share with you ? No, not really. I really believe that you will do much better if you just experiment with your setup all on your own. Exciters depends on a lot of thing. Of course, what brand and model you’ve got, what thickness there is to the build you’ve made. The size of the area where they are placed. The placement themselves. What level you’ve decided to keep your amps on. Which vst plugin do you prefer – etc. I’m sure you understand where I’m going. Only you will be able to know if you like one combination over the other. Just know. This hobby is awesome and new you’ve dug yourself into a even bigger hole and you’re going to love it ;)

    #158433 Report
    rob3d
    Participant
    @rob3d

    Is there a recommended sound card to use with the rob method?  I’m running an optiplex 990mt and have 1 pci slot avaialable but i was considering using a USB sound card like this:

    Vantec NBA-200U USB External 7.1 Channel Audio Adapter

    Would something like this work, or should I be going for an internal solution?

    #158511 Report
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    Can’t really use the term recommended while it comes to sound. In my living room I have a sound system that I’m happy with. When I really want to listen to music I head over to my friends house. Personally for SSF, the built in audio of my mother board based on the realtek 7.1 is good enough for me. If you don’t have that option. Well, get that 7.1 usb. It isn’t super expensive so if it doesn’t work to your satisfaction, it won’t bankrupt you. I’ve said it a few times in other threads. Asking for hardware recommendations is kind of hopeless. The only ones that really know if it is a good solution will probably already have exactly the same. And, what is it to say that they know if there exists anything better – since they most probably bought the thing and never tried alternatives. You see where I’m going at with this don’t you ?

    SSF bought for exciters in mind don’t really need crystal clear audiophile quality. Exciters will muffle the sound anyway. So, my real answer to you is. Most probably.

     

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #158529 Report
    rob3d
    Participant
    @rob3d

    Thanks for the reply. I guess Ill go with this for now.  Originally I was gonna get the creative 7.1 card found here  but when I checked the I/O on it, looks like it doesn’t have a dedicated Side channel out put, but rather a split Side between the rear and sub outputs

     

    IO

     

    I imagine that would be a no go for SSF right? Everything I’ve seen so far mentions side and rear out as requirements.

    As a side note I know literally nothing about premium audio so all of this is very new to me.

     

     

     

     

     

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