This topic contains 151 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  randr 6 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 152 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #42536
     freezy 
    Participant

    One thing I would like to see is a standardized naming convention for files downloaded.  I would like to see some of the names validated against IPDB for year, mfg, and title. then maybe author, version, mod description, ect…   I pretty sure most everyone downloads files and then immediately renames them to match their preferred convention, which is fine and will still happen. However, it would be nice to always start from the same place.

    Yeah you can do that under preferences. Basically there are placeholders you can mix to your liking, which define how the table file in the .zip is named. Oh, and if your tweaks are only script changes, I’ve found a way to automatically keep them across table updates. I’m looking into how to apply other changes as well, but that’s going to me more challenging.

    @fren: Well you didn’t reply when I asked, so no AMH at VPDB. Pity, it’s a very nice table and I specially added support for the UltraDMD stuff.

    @icpjuggla: I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m just trying to step on as little toes as possible.

    Keeping everyone happy is impossible, but to be honest I appreciate you guys here a lot. It was a difficult decision and you don’t make it any easier now. ;)

    #42539
     CarnyPriest 
    Participant
    Member

    Ok, let’s just say that VPF isn’t the community. Their rules only apply to their site. Just because it’s the oldest (well….) doesn’t mean their rules are all encompassing. BESIDES that, I think the interface is great, I think it’s a cool idea, I think it’s a long time coming. But I won’t continue to participate since most of my tables wouldn’t be allowed. I give permission for any of my tables to be uploaded there if that’s desired (I think AMH is already there) but since the best of my work is focused on games that have been nixed from access for arbitrary reasons, I won’t actively participate. I was very excited about the project until the SAM rule was added. It was very disappointing.

    Yes, that was the sentiment I was trying to express. I like the technology very much as a distribution platform. It’s this initial application of the technology. Disembodied from a developer’s/author’s forum and fully automated, I truly don’t see it as that helpful. But it’s good for the casual player. It’s Wal-Mart for VP. No reason to stay once you have gotten your shit.

    I don’t really care about the commercial implications. I should not have even brought that up. I take freezy at his word that it’s not a distribution arm for VPCabs. Even if it was, I don’t care. I own a VPCabs cabinet and I like it very much. I know freezy has shopped the tech around, and I’m Ok that it’s GameEx that stepped up to sponsor it.

    I take it that it is a fresh start as far as content goes, and that it will not be using existing files on the FTP.

    What irks me about vpdb.io is the SAM rule and the perpetuation of the myth of this binding gentlemen’s agreement and the subsequent “worst kept secret in virtual pinball”. It may not be explicitly stated, but within the community the implication is that if you don’t believe this then you (meaning everyone who contributes to VPinball, VPU, MonsterBashPincab, etc.) are bad people, disrespectful, and wish harm to the larger pinball community. You can see how this might not be perceived all that well here? No need to repeat the arguments. They have been repeated ad nauseam for years, literally. And of course, it opens up all the lawyerly questions about the exact nature of all of the restrictions. Is a KISS recreation OK because it does not use Stern’s game code? Is a TBL recreation OK because it is not a Stern table? And so on…

    Yes, I’m not happy about it. We don’t share the same point of view. But again, their house and their rules. I’m not going to waste time arguing further about it. I don’t feel motivated to contribute to it. That’s all. Freezy does not at all have to defend that position to me. I don’t think he shares it, but it doesn’t matter to me if he did. I focus on the solution itself, as it is an open source gift to the community. It’s all there, and I do hope that it will be adopted some fine day in an environment that is more open.

     

     

    #42540
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    Freezy keep conversations like this active to answer questions and concerns I think is best way for people to accept change. I sorta agree with Icpjuggla about vpcabs if they will be using it as a selling point that’s going to put off people. Vpcabs has not even once responded to anything about preloading up tables/roms and his business is based at least 5O% off the vp community. Brad should at least say something.

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
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    #42543
     Tom Speirs 
    Participant

    Hi all,

    Just wanted to correct (or provide some clarity around) a few facts. Otherwise please say what you want guys!

    For the Foreseable future = While its affordable and I see no reason why that is going to be an issue. I strongly believe this project has to stay free. If it did become expensive which is highly unlikely I’d be happy for someone else to pay for the hosting rather than look for revenue from it. I gave freezy a bit of a heart attack a few weeks back as I want it to be very clear I don’t own this in any way.

    Our motivation = Nothing commercial or to do with VPCABs. We did briefly talk to VPCabs about it though (just saying so I can be transparent with you).

    I am not sure what Freezy said about VPCabs to you Randr but it didn’t come from me? They have no involvement in this project. Its possible they could make use of the project at some point. That’s where it would have come from but its not being sold to them or anything. If it was abused or became an issue I would be quite happy to stipulate no commercial use. I guess you will just have to trust me on that!

    Enjoy.

    #42549
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    @tspeirs I trust what you say and is good enough for me! good stuff tom and freezy :good:

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    *******************************************************

    #42554
     Tom Speirs 
    Participant

    Thanks. Please ask me if you have any questions guys around the intentions or top level stuff. I never said I was a saint but I am always honest (too much for my own good!).

    As for SAM – my view is that foremost I want to cover my ass other than that I have no real ethical stance on it and the community can decide.

    #42558
     Drybonz 
    Participant
    Member

    Thanks for jumping in the conversation, Tom and Freezy… I’m feeling more reassured about the project.

    #42561
     freezy 
    Participant

    Yes, that was the sentiment I was trying to express. I like the technology very much as a distribution platform. It’s this initial application of the technology. Disembodied from a developer’s/author’s forum and fully automated, I truly don’t see it as that helpful. But it’s good for the casual player. It’s Wal-Mart for VP. No reason to stay once you have gotten your shit.

    While that’s true I don’t think it’s relevant. It applies to everybody. Do you think that the casual player “stays” at the forums just because it’s a hassle to get the files? No. Do you think established and active members of the community enjoy spending 10 minutes searching for a ROM and the right backglass for a given table? Hardly. I’ve heard there are some. I don’t. VPF is a horrible download experience.

    What I’m trying to say is that one doesn’t exclude the other: You can have a thriving forum site and a thriving “distribution” site at the same time. For a forum community, all the leechers that just come, “get their shit and don’t stay” have zero value. Let VPDB handle those. Focus on what you do best: Maintain a wonderful community of virtual pinball enthusiasts.

    “But at a distribution site, us authors become anonymous and noone will appreciate our work anymore!”

    Honestly I don’t think that’s true. I remember how I was when I first visited VPF: I straight went to the downloads section. I didn’t bother searching for WIP threads or read thousands of other threads. “Submitter” names in the file descriptor were completely irrelevant. I think at VPDB, authors are more prominently displayed. Just look at the space authors and acknowledgements take at VPDB compared to here and VPF:

    author-space
    We can even go further: What if the next PinballX version displayed the authors including avatar of each game in the wheel? This kind of stuff is easy doable with structured data but nearly impossible with the forum solutions we currently have.

    What irks me about vpdb.io is the SAM rule and the perpetuation of the myth of this binding gentlemen’s agreement and the subsequent “worst kept secret in virtual pinball”. It may not be explicitly stated, but within the community the implication is that if you don’t believe this then you (meaning everyone who contributes to VPinball, VPU, MonsterBashPincab, etc.) are bad people, disrespectful, and wish harm to the larger pinball community.

    I must admit that this thought hasn’t crossed my mind. I was always under the impression that the “narrative” was to follow VPF rules with the rest being “rebels”. I didn’t think anyone could be offended by not supporting SAM. If that’s the case, I sincerely apologize, that was the least of my intentions.

    I need to think more about the consequences allowing SAM and obviously discuss it with Tom and everyone else involved. I’ll keep you guys posted.

     

    Attachments:
    #42597
     CarnyPriest 
    Participant
    Member

    I don’t think anyone here considers VPF the gold standard in openness and user experience. Hardly need to sell me on the need for a change. The VPDB design is great.

    It’s all politics. What are the restrictions on uploaded content? What are the circumstances in which resources pulled from work can be shared/not shared, with/without permission or attribution. I know we had discussed something like a Creative Commons license. Laying out the options for authors may help. Right now, the policy encourages the community to use common sense. We’ve been OK at policing ourselves, but shit still happens quite regularly. Don’t know if everybody will get on board with licensing work. And I don’t know how these rights get enforced, if it’s possible.

    Thanks for considering a change in policy regarding SAM, though.

     

    #42600
     Al 
    Participant
    Member

    I must admit that this thought hasn’t crossed my mind. I was always under the impression that the “narrative” was to follow VPF rules with the rest being “rebels”. I didn’t think anyone could be offended by not supporting SAM. If that’s the case, I sincerely apologize, that was the least of my intentions.

    Kinda like supporting the rebellion ;)

    frederickdouglass1

    Thanks again Freezy, your passion for this project is very comforting, and shines though. :good:

    Cheers,

    al.

     

    Attachments:
    #42604
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    Yes, that was the sentiment I was trying to express. I like the technology very much as a distribution platform. It’s this initial application of the technology. Disembodied from a developer’s/author’s forum and fully automated, I truly don’t see it as that helpful. But it’s good for the casual player. It’s Wal-Mart for VP. No reason to stay once you have gotten your shit.

    While that’s true I don’t think it’s relevant. It applies to everybody. Do you think that the casual player “stays” at the forums just because it’s a hassle to get the files? No. Do you think established and active members of the community enjoy spending 10 minutes searching for a ROM and the right backglass for a given table? Hardly. I’ve heard there are some. I don’t. VPF is a horrible download experience. What I’m trying to say is that one doesn’t exclude the other: You can have a thriving forum site and a thriving “distribution” site at the same time. For a forum community, all the leechers that just come, “get their shit and don’t stay” have zero value. Let VPDB handle those. Focus on what you do best: Maintain a wonderful community of virtual pinball enthusiasts. “But at a distribution site, us authors become anonymous and noone will appreciate our work anymore!” Honestly I don’t think that’s true. I remember how I was when I first visited VPF: I straight went to the downloads section. I didn’t bother searching for WIP threads or read thousands of other threads. “Submitter” names in the file descriptor were completely irrelevant. I think at VPDB, authors are more prominently displayed. Just look at the space authors and acknowledgements take at VPDB compared to here and VPF: author-space We can even go further: What if the next PinballX version displayed the authors including avatar of each game in the wheel? This kind of stuff is easy doable with structured data but nearly impossible with the forum solutions we currently have.

    What irks me about vpdb.io is the SAM rule and the perpetuation of the myth of this binding gentlemen’s agreement and the subsequent “worst kept secret in virtual pinball”. It may not be explicitly stated, but within the community the implication is that if you don’t believe this then you (meaning everyone who contributes to VPinball, VPU, MonsterBashPincab, etc.) are bad people, disrespectful, and wish harm to the larger pinball community.

    I must admit that this thought hasn’t crossed my mind. I was always under the impression that the “narrative” was to follow VPF rules with the rest being “rebels”. I didn’t think anyone could be offended by not supporting SAM. If that’s the case, I sincerely apologize, that was the least of my intentions. I need to think more about the consequences allowing SAM and obviously discuss it with Tom and everyone else involved. I’ll keep you guys posted.

    When i decided to do my own downloads  section i basically followed IPBoards design for downloads as a base so it was familiar looking to people but different too. I think the Author avatar/name size is fine here but always looking to improve things. TRUST me im not afraid to change a look or try new ideas here ;) I love change and new things for sites!

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    *******************************************************

    #42606
     Drybonz 
    Participant
    Member

    I think the original concern, by authors, when they are talking about becoming anonymous, is that without a system of interacting with the players… hardcore and casual… is that they will become just an avatar.  It’s doesn’t really matter how much space is designated to the author’s picture… I think what most authors want is to be able to have conversations and interact with people, some or all, that are downloading their tables.  For most of us here, it’s fun to do that.

    #42607
     Drybonz 
    Participant
    Member

    The simple solution, to me, seems to be… here’s the download at VPDB, and on every download page there… here is a link to the discussion thread at vpinball (or where ever the author likes to hang out).

    #42608
     Al 
    Participant
    Member

    here is a link to the discussion thread at vpinball

    That’s an elegant solution ..

    #42649
     freezy 
    Participant

    Yeah you can already link any thread or site when uploading a release to VPDB. That’s what most table authors already did, e.g. Tom and Ninuzzu link to their WIPs at monsterbashpincab. I also think that it’s a good solution. People who want to know more about the release or the author go to the linked forum/thread the author indicated, and the link is clearly visible. As VPDB drives more traffic, more people will come visit those forums, and they are people interested in the community, not just in the download. So I think that this could work very well.

    @randr, my screenshot wasn’t supposed to criticize your layout at all. I think it’s fine how you’ve solved it here, because you already have the forum section where the authors get honored. Just as a general note when it comes to layout or design, I would rather take the approach “what would VPF not do” in order to make VPB better… ;)

    @Al, good point about the rebellion. :)

    @drybonz: I think these details actually matter. If every time you launch a table you see the author’s name and avatar, you WILL recognize it if you happen to see a post with the same name and picture on a site. And that’s one of the things that matter, right? If on a board maybe even totally unrelated to pinball, someone responds in a thread and adds “By the way, you’re the guy who recreated game X, right? Pretty awesome!”, then that’s pretty cool, right?

    #42650
     randr 
    Keymaster
    ModeratorMember

    @freezy I modeled after ipboards  forum software not vpf. Since this is not forum software here I think it looks “ok” and familiar but different.

     

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    *******************************************************

    #42651
     freezy 
    Participant

    Yes, true, sorry, I noticed too late. IPB made a lot of progress in v4 though.

    #42658
     Drybonz 
    Participant
    Member

    Freezy, yeah you are right… the two things can go hand in hand.  What do you think about “link to discussion thread” being standardized as a field in the table submission form?

    #42659
     freezy 
    Participant

    I thought about that, basically some pre-defined values as link descriptions. But finally there will be always other kind of links that aren’t anticipated, meaning we would need to have an option for adding link types and then it just gets really complicated. I like simple. :) So currently it’s a label and an URL the author can define. Or multiple of course.

    #42664
     Daryl 
    Participant
    Member

    Freezy, yeah you are right… the two things can go hand in hand. What do you think about “link to discussion thread” being standardized as a field in the table submission form?

    if that’s the case, why bother storing anything .. create a site with just links to VPF downloads :-) See how far that goes …

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