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I think the only thing that makes people think that SAM is an additional risk over other tables, even from the same time period, is that Paul said that it was.
I don’t want to sound like I am trying to push you into it… I really don’t have any stake in it. I am not super crazy about most of those tables, and I already have copies of the ones I like… and the other ones too. I would like to see the hysteria over these tables, that fragmented the entire VP online community put to rest… so that is really the only reason I have posted about it.
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Farsight has expensive licenses to Bally, Williams, and Gottlieb properties as well. Funded Kickstarters for T2, TAF, etc. They are not necessarily less of a risk than SAM because FS is trying to make money off these older titles too. If the powers that be are going to come after you then they’re going to come after you. SAM or no SAM.
Same old arguments. Tom will do what he feels is right for him. I’m letting this go.
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Sure, you can also make that argument. I’m not even necessarily afraid of Farsight, they struggle enough without suing people who wouldn’t be able to pay anything anyway. The point I’m trying to make is that for us, it feels like a risk. Fren sounded like there was a hidden agenda with money involved somehow. Can you follow my reasoning why that’s not the case?
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Gamex is commercial software but he provides PinballX and its support forums free of charge which is very generous. There is a modest fee for accessing the FTP. Contributors can earn free access, and he is pretty quick in my view about granting contributor status. At this point, it’s just not a big money generator. I don’t know Tom’s motivations here. I’m guessing he just really likes virtual pinball and likes the VPDB technology. VPDB is free now. If there is a charge in the future, I can’t imagine that it would be any different than the tiered schedules that VPF and VPU use. Bandwidth isn’t free. People in this hobby are cheap bastards for the most part. I don’t think at the end of the day that many will pay extra even for extra convenience. So, no, I don’t think money is a big factor here.
I get that you feel that there is a risk here. It’s a feeling. I don’t think it is rational, but it’s not me putting this site out there. Although it somewhat defeats the purpose of the site, you could alleviate the risk by not hosting roms and software. Or at least not hosting SAM and Whitestar game code. They are publicly available at Stern anyway. Then the onus is on the user to put the pieces together to cheat Stern or whatever we think is happening here. PinMAME has nag screens for a reason. They provide some level of plausible deniability that developers are enabling criminal activity. Again, though, if they are going to come after you they are going to come after you.
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You know what i think is strange and this will sound crazy but is how i look at this whole VP thing.
I feel Actually playing the games is a nice bonus in emulation. Now for myself i love to see the build, scripting, development of all things to actually emulate a pinball machine.
Playing again is a nice side effect of everyones hard work.
I may be in the minority here but for me seeing this hobby progress is just as fun as playing! Yes i like to play but i also LOVE seeing the cutting edge things being implemented into each VP build, table release and VPM release. Its just amazing stuff!
Im just Proud to be a very small part of all this. Im not great at typing and my grammar/spelling is probably worse then a 9 year old but i will just say this…
I don’t care if VPDB has sam tables, or whatever tables. I will always contribute in all forums and probably always download from them too. BUT I have friends that I have made cabinets for and i would be very happy that they could get tables simply by picking one! These people need the easy way out and couldn’t care less who made the thing. SADLY thats the way some people are.
Freezy the VPDB site looks amazing and im sure people that just want to grab and go will love it. Working with pinballx is such a great way to do it too.
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Conflict of interest. GameEx/VPDB and VPF/VirtuaPin. I want nothing to do with it. Money is dictating this hobby more and more and the people who make it possible need to do what they can to fight it. I’m not going to support a product or service that’s making money off of us and I hope other table builders do the same. Making the tables isn’t going to get us in trouble, as you’ve discovered the money is what will get us in trouble.
As I said earlier, you’re not hosting SAM tables because someone is making money.
Punch it!
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You’re not open to the tables myself and many others have created on this site and VPU and other SAM friendly sites, however you’re actively discussing it here. That’s the alienation I am referring to.
Oh no, then you completely misunderstood my intentions. I’m very open to the tables you and many others here have created. As stated above, I would love to have them at VPDB. Apart from that, even if that wasn’t the case, you think that doesn’t legitimate me pointing out my views here? If that really alienates people, I guess I’m at the wrong place indeed. But let me again try to explain the intentions behind not allowing SAM. Basically it boils down to the fact that we all distribute IP that doesn’t belong to us. Farsight pays tens of thousands of dollars for their licenses and we don’t. We can argue okay but it’s kind of “fair use” because it’s our hobby and we don’t make any money out of it and it was the reason for the pinball renaissance and what not, but at the end of the day, if a DCMA takedown notice comes in, it gets uncomfortable, not only for the one receiving it, but for everybody. So the goal is to mitigate that risk. VPF as by far the biggest board has these SAM rules and they seem to have gotten them under the radar all those years, Gary Stern agreement or not. I don’t know if VPF’s SAM rule was the reason they are still running, but it’s a possibility. Maybe we have all been brainwashed enough by Paul to believe it. Tom runs a business with GameEx. I hope you can understand that supporting SAM is an additional risk for him too. It might be worth taking, but until that’s decided, you’ll just have to bear with us.
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- I’m not sure where you suspect any money. I’m even more clueless why you would think that this was about any money.
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Punch it!
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Forum fail. But yea, it’s about money. So frustrating. Quit selling us out
Punch it!
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Let me get a piece of that Shark Tank money though
Punch it!
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Thats not even U.S. dollars!! :) lol! thats a forum fail
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It’s interesting that you only are concerned about Stern when it comes to something like a DCMA takedown notice. Here are some interesting tibits of information:
The license owners of Gottlieb made IPDB take down all other digital copies of Gottlieb pinball machine manuals so they could sell them for money instead of them being given away for free.
Scientific Games owns the licenses to Bally/Williams pinball machines and they have authorized licensed products and enforcement to PPS. Rick at PPS is well known for sending cease and desist to anyone that tries to sell parts or artwork with any of those IP’s.
Stern has been known to send similar C&D’s to people who make mods for their pins where the mod has copies of artwork or logos that are owned by Stern. They have also sent C&D’s to people who made replacement parts and artwork for Data East games as well that were unauthorized. There are probably more examples, but those are ones I have seen.
None of those companies have ever done anything related to VP. My guess is because it’s free software and the tables are free and they were put together by a bunch of people for free. Nobody was trying to make money off the IP’s.
I think that is what Fren’s (and many others) concern is, if anyone starts to try to make money off of this hobby, they might all take notice, not just Stern.
-Mike
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Forum fail. But yea, it’s about money. So frustrating. Quit selling us out
I hope you’re being cynical. If that’s not the case, please explain to me how exactly I’m selling anyone out.
I’ve created VPDB mainly because I couldn’t bare the VPF experience anymore (and because I knew I could do it). I didn’t “go shopping” for hosting. I started with the mock-up thread at VPF, hoping that Paul would jump in, and at some point I contacted Tom because I wanted to have VPDB integrated with PinballX. He liked the project and offered hosting. He always insisted that it would stay free. I always insisted it would stay open, i.e. the source code publicly accessible, an open API, anything possible. I honestly don’t know how I could possibly make VPDB more transparent than it already is.
I just forwarded a $100 check from Jeff Atwood, co-founder of stackoverflow.com, to the EFF. It was an appreciation for the DMD Extensions I developed recently. I’m lucky to have a day job that pays well enough. I don’t need to make additional money with my hobbies. If you think everyone’s goal in life is only about money, I pity you.
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I’m glad you’re feeling philanthropic but that does not absolve you from the connections you’ve made.
Punch it!
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and as I said, your project is great. The horse you’ve hitched your wagon to, however, is not. You’ve said you’re not making money and I believe you, however you’ve given it to someone who is making money off of it and will benefit greatly from it’s use. You can choose to pity me all you want but your pity is poorly misguided.
Punch it!
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Oh so it’s Tom you’re worried about?
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Stern or no stern, money or no money, I still think, other than some obvious copyright breaches, the whole vpin experience is still just a catalyst to playing real machines, and in that sense, a nice db like vpdb is an attractive option for people who want an attractive option.
I’ve played more real machines since I built my cab than I have in the last 30 years, and they have been a mix of brand new collectors, and old machines ( we don’t have any real arcades here anymore ), it’s been so much fun playing real machines that I am planning our next holiday trip overseas to play more. My daughter and her boyfriend are actively seeking out new machines in and around Adelaide, and interstate when they travel, I’d have dozens of different texts from them and mates playing a machine in a pub somewhere, our fishing club recently met at a local pub because they had a Gone Fishin’ machine after playing it at my place on the cab at an earlier meeting, which was something none of these “new pinball enthusiasts” had done before I built the cab. Grubby IP, copyright and infringement, scared corporate dicks who see money now over money later (as corporate structure dictates), all of this is like a shadow, and if it’s a dollar a year, ten bucks or as in my case closer to grand, that I feed into pinball machines, it’s all additional hype, free advertising, and business for the real pinball manufacturers.
I don’t think this is appreciated as much as it should be, If VPF had any balls they would have struck a deal after presenting a case rather than making a big deal out of meeting someone, and constantly talking it up, indeed, if STERN or anyone else for that matter that makes a pinball machine had any brains/balls, they would jump onboard and sponsor the virtual pinball community to keep the hype going, keep people lusting after decent machines and keep the momentum growing. Oh and don’t get me started on how many new young minds I’ve turned into pinball devotees .. these are the next generation of pinball purchasers, and players, all thanks to my crappy (compared to others ) cab and some copyright, IP infringement !
Finding a virtual table that I like, just makes me want to try the real table… I’m looking forward to buying a real table when the right one comes along ..
/TLDR:
Virtual Pinball is good, real tables are better & VPDB is very pretty
/
just my 2¢
Cheers,
al.
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if STERN or anyone else for that matter that makes a pinball machine had any brains/balls, they would jump onboard and sponsor the virtual pinball community to keep the hype going, keep people lusting after decent machines and keep the momentum growing.
No need for Stern to spend money to sponsor the community when they can offer a product and make money from the community:
http://www.sternpinballarcade.com/
I think they are doing Ghostbusters soon, and I can see them doing same day virtual releases at some point. For good or bad, it’s not like Stern needs us.
Thinking about it, I think the safe bet for VPDB would be to remove the roms and software. Host the tables and media. If you want scan the script to determine which set the table calls for. Post a link to site with roms if you want. But it puts the responsibility on the player to download the code and make a decision on whether to play it or not. It is the all-in-one aspect where someone clicks a button and everything plus game code get copied over to the correct locations and it is ready to play that is the risky thing for a site owner. There’s a reason why tables don’t get published with game code. Without the software and game code, what would be offered is just images and fan service like any other enthusiast site. It would still be very convenient.
Myself, I don’t think that there is a money grab here. But it’s an author’s choice to publish at VPDB or not. If you feel that you will be exploited then don’t publish there. All indications are that uploads will be monitored for unauthorized content although we all know that’s not a perfect system.
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Freezy you can make a bomb with household goods but if you provide a bomb grab and go kit then your site is responsible.
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Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
for IOS and Android********************************************************
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For good or bad, it’s not like Stern needs us.
Fair point, but you don’t make hype with a single point attack, you spread it over a number of different areas., and my point is that the virtual is a representation of something analogue, and both can coexist, as one builds hype/desire/money for the other. It’s a pretty common marketing ploy, but I guess it comes down to where their revenue stream comes from these days. Looking at the cost of machines here in Au, I’d be assuming machines still !
Even knowing it is a bit underground and rebellious will grow hype, perhaps the stern dude was cleverer and more farsighted ( see what I did there ) than I am assuming .. having it constantly talked about may be part of a master plan ;)
Cheers,
al.
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Freezy you can make a bomb with household goods but if you provide a bomb grab and go kit then your site is responsible.
If I understand your metaphor correctly then I’d say it’s more like VPF is the grab and go kit and VPDB the assembled thing. It can get very unpleasant for both.
There are some interesting views in here I hadn’t considered. It’s nice to have such a civilized discussion. Cheers.
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