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Wanted to comment so I started my own thread. Thalamus, agreed totally with what you said. Randr, why would you need a VPN to access this site? Is there a way to tell who is using a VPN now?
My two cents we need to reestablish some rules on this site. There are many things that need to be stated like etiquette, manners, rules for uploading and possibly implementing a new plan for membership. I have 2 jobs and in both we get emailed every so often with updated info and new policy and procedures. The only way to do this on this site is to make it mandatory to read some how because I feel that many people hit the download button and never look on the forum.
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I agree with @thalamus as well.
Banning people from using a VPN is not going to solve the problem with the assholes who are downloading tables to include them in their cabinets or who do so on the cabinet makers behalf. There are a lot of people who use VPN’s for legitimate reasons like students and people in countries who have asshole governments and people who just don’t want their login details stolen while using their device via public wifi.
Are there people who abuse them? Yes. There are also people who drive their cars like idiots all day every day as well but we don’t ban everyone from using cars. We create rules and laws to punish them for driving like idiots.
Another good reason not to ban VPN users is there are ways to circumvent the ban if a person is determined to do so. It’s a pain in the ass but it can be done and the information is readily available.
Here’s a screenshot I took at random of people who were online yesterday afternoon.
Besides the moderators I only recognized 4 other users out of the remaining 111 registered members because they are either regulars on the site who post at least semi frequently or table authors. I click on a random name and I see someone who joined 3 years ago who has not one post, not one like, not one thanks ever. I don’t consider this type of person a lurker as lurkers don’t need to create a user account to lurk. If they have extreme social anxiety to the point that they get all locked up and shaky at the thought of even posting a comment that’s one thing but hitting the like or thanks button doesn’t require posting does it?
Maybe they’re on chat. I say so what? Having a private conversation day after day with your good buddies about what upcoming tables you’re drooling about doesn’t make you part of a community does it? That requires some kind of open interaction. And if they can chat every day they can hit the like or thanks buttons once in a while too. Not doing that just tells me they don’t give a fuck. They’re just here for the free beer.
I believe that’s partly what @herweh was getting at in this post .
The problem with this kind of person is that they are the root of the problem. It’s going to be someone like this who is providing tables to the cabinet people or actually are the cabinet people. It’s not going to be the regulars, the people who have rage quit or the people who take the time to appreciate things. It’s the IDGAF people that are doing it.
Look for the freeloader accounts who don’t contribute as they’re not really a part of the community. Kill the ability for these people to download and the people who really do care might start making a bit of an effort and the ones who do can have that privilege back. New users could have some kind of probation period where they can’t download until certain criteria are met.
I noticed that under the “Legend” area in the “Who’s online” section at the bottom of the main forum area there is a green option marked “Spectator”. Is that something that could be utilized in this manner? As far as I’m concerned that’s exactly what these people are.
I think that this is the way to start making progress in this area. It will never stop cabinet makers from providing tables in their product completely (I don’t think anything will) but the harder you make it on them the better.
As an afterthought I took a look at the table which has the most downloads which is Funhouse by @wrd1972. As of this writing it has 10774 downloads, 45+ likes, 49 people have thanked him (and all the others who contributed) and there are approximately 420 posts in the “support topic” not all of which are expressing thanks or appreciation but for the sake of argument let’s say they are. That means 10260 people grabbed their free beer and headed for the door. How many of them are cabinet makers or their source? This is out of a potential total of almost 18000 people.
I could pick up dickhead Jeffrey Epsteins corpse by the heels and start swinging it around this forum and it would drop an army of freeloaders before it hit someone who gives a shit beyond downloading and playing a table for free.
That’s not a community that’s fucking pathetic. This cabinet issue has been plaguing the community for a long time now and there is a certain someone who is responsible for starting it all. Isn’t that part of the reason why this community was started in the first place?
Time for some change IMHO.
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That was a very good write up. I do agree with you but I also started to think about myself and the other vp sites. I mostly work here on this site but I definitely visit, download and post on forums at vpf and vpu. I wonder if I didn’t do enough over at those two sites and was not able to be a member there would my personal hobby suffer, most definitely. It is very easy to contribute here but it is a lot harder to contribute three times let alone 4 or 5 with the additional sites. Rogue pinball I just started visiting because they have a large collection of vp9 tables but you have to earn downloads. Good idea but all I did was just thank the creator of the table if I wanted to download it. How shitty would that be if Funhouse had on its support page 10,000 separate posts saying “thanks“just so they could download it. I think the forum and support topics would just get crowded with a bunch of crap.
on the other hand only keeping the “contributing” members and getting rid of everyone else sounds good, but I say that because I am on the inside looking out…
it is a very slippery slope and needs a lot of thought
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Put the pitchforks away, and Insert Coin ;)
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It is the same problem I’ve seen before, in Fandom, and back in my Commodore User Group days. 90% of the club work is done by 10% of the members, and it’s really hard to change that. All they’d do is go to the other sites.
Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.You need to login in order to like this post: click here
@N3roflint while I agree with much that you said, I am going to give you my experience as I have a little over a year in this hobby. I knew absolutely nothing about Virtual Pinball until a year ago, I have always loved Pinball. I am so happy I have found it and the wonderful amount of people who have helped me.
I spent almost a full year on building my cabinet, adding solenoids, shaker, RGB flashers etc. This took much of my time, looking for information on how this was done. Now that I have done it once, I could build a new cab in a quarter of that time. My remaining time was spent downloading everything and trying to get it working right. This was not easy for me, as I know nothing about computers. BTW, I had to learn how to build a computer, which scared the hell out of me. Also, just editing a table script scared me. Now all of that is easy to do since everyone has helped me. I can go into the registry now without having a heart attack
My experience was all of my time was in researching, scouring these forums and asking for help to get this built. My mind was only focused on the cabinet being completed and getting VPX,B2S, SAM, FREEZY, PINMAME and everything else working I did not even know about a LIKE or THANKS button until a few months ago Ever since I found out about it, I use it, although I am sure I have forgotten to here or there. I recently sent @Wildman a PM thanking him for all of his B2S of his that I use and explained I knew nothing about the like button when I downloaded them. So, does that count, even though I didn’t hit thanks every time before I knew about the THANKS button? I don’t know
Maybe I am missing something easy, but on VPU you have to go to the review page to offer thanks This is on a whole different page than the download button page. Here, the download button is on the first page. But, if I want to say thanks, I need to go to the support topic. Maybe a THANKS or LIKE button right next to where you click download, on the same page would be better? I don’t know.
I try to give back, but my computer skills are next to nothing. I have answered a few questions here and there when I am 100% sure I know the answer. As I don’t want to give wrong information, if I’m only 90% sure, I don’t give it, as I know, I am not as knowledgeable as many here are. I have made some wheels, but I don’t post them because their are people more skilled than I that make way better wheels than I (I don’t even use the wheels I made) although it was fun trying.
I am constantly checking here and FB and the other sites for anything new or any new knowledge I can gain, like recently, I added SSF I would hate to think I couldn’t continue all of this because I know nothing about computers or coding or programming or photoshop or blender, on and on
I will say, I know much more about a lot of those things than I did a year ago because of the 3 sites and FB. If I was unable to continue for lack of computer knowledge I would be very sad and also very grateful for all I have learned and the awesome tables and B2s that I have on my cab now.
Rock On.
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@N3roflint quote, “Besides the moderators I only recognized 4 other users out of the remaining 111 registered members”.
Besides the moderators when I took a look at your screenshot, I picked out 12 other users that I recognized the name and N3roflint was not one of them I would have picked out until today.
‘I think this subject is best left to to those who have been here much longer than me, so I really have no input on what should or shouldn’t be done. I would just hope it doesn’t end up hurting people that really enjoy this hobby.
I also believe, no matter what is or isn’t done, some cabinet makers will still do what they are doing now. They will find a way no matter what. Like if you go to a sports game or concert or anything like that, you always have people outside selling knock-off t-shirts and what not. These bands and sports leagues have deep pockets to stop this, but, it still goes on outside the arena because, they will find a way no matter what is done to them.
I have to question how much money these people make as well? If left alone by us, would these people really still be in business a month from now, a year from now? Are we giving them free advertisements? I would have never known these cabinet makers who sell with tables included even existed until a few weeks ago. Where did I find out about it? VPF, Facebook pinball groups and right here. Makes me wonder if this is all just free advertisement for them.
i want to be clear, i do not condone what they are doing, I just wonder if it is worth so much time and energy from so many. I will admit I have no answer to this and could be totally wrong. Just my thoughts on it.
Finally, what is the difference between a THANKS and a LIKE? If I Thank someone do I also need to Like it and vice versa? Is one or the other enough? This is a serious question. I would like to know the proper etiquette on that.
Rock On
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The local lazy commercial pincab (and mamecab) seller here in Denver has been going for at least three years, so clearly there’s money to be made at it. That lazy commercial pincab seller is doing what I almost always expect (at least on the minis) and running VP9 on those cabs, which goes a ways to explaining how to make money at it; provide an older software build. After all, you can run just about all VP9 tables on a $100-150 computer, plus I’m sure just about all the tables built for that version are readily available on torrents by this point. I used about $160 worth of cabinet-grade plywood for our cab here, so between that, hardware (most of what I’ve seen is based around a short standard body), you’re probably talking $1500 tops in construction – and remember, that’s higher grade materials and true arcade parts, I would not be surprised to learn that those cabs are made with the cheapest plywood possible, and whatever monitor of the size type happens to be on sale that build day, so it might get down to under $1000 even with basic DOF gear (most people would be sufficiently impressed with three solenoids). And they’re selling those cabs for $4000-5000. Even just building and selling two cabs a month can make enough bank to be worth it, especially if you’re doing delivery only and don’t need a sales floor.
Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.You need to login in order to like this post: click here
I hit like when someone posts something I like. I say thanks to the things I download or someone gives some helpful advice because to me a thank you goes a long way but that’s just how I was raised.
Hi my name is Barry and I'm a virtual pinball addict.
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@flstclasic, I had the exact same experience starting as you did. I didn’t do my first table until a year later when I began to understand what was going on. I would say that most people come into this hobby not knowing much and develop the skills to contribute based off of the love of the hobby and the comradery that comes with it. As for the like and thanks, was confusing to me too but the way I look at it, if you enjoy a post or a download you”like” it, if you download or take something, you should always say thanks, like “most”parents taught you. Or do both and your never wrong.
Unfortunately these guys selling cabinets with tables or the new guy that come in and does 1 mod to 30 tables and released them as his….. gives a bad name to everyone else. I would rather deal with those jackoffs or have to set some “Big” pain in the butt straight than loose people like you @flstclasic. And as far as creating new things, find something that’s not there and create it, even if it’s just a wheel image. It’s very addictive and very gratifying to have other people enjoy what you create. I have been extremely lucky that some of the big guys in this hobby have taken the time to work with me and teach me their ways, not gonna mention their names cause they might get even bigger heads
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@LyninDenver from your figures I can see how it could be profitable now. I just see no way of ever stopping it. If that guy in Denver (I’ve spent some time in Fort Collins, beautiful city) was forced to stop, he would just open up shop somewhere else or someone new would take his place.Thanks for the post.
@Badazzwi, @Tom That makes sense to me now on the Thanks and Likes. I feel silly now that you explained it.I would love to make tables some day. I feel it would just take me forever to figure it all out. I think my wife might hunt you all done as well and tell you to quit giving me ideas. Maybe someday. I have really enjoyed working with photoshop. I had never touched it until I designed my cabinet artwork. Very awesome program!
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@LyninDenver from your figures I can see how it could be profitable now. I just see no way of ever stopping it. If that guy in Denver (I’ve spent some time in Fort Collins, beautiful city) was forced to stop, he would just open up shop somewhere else or someone new would take his place.Thanks for the post.
@Badazzwi, @Tom That makes sense to me now on the Thanks and Likes. I feel silly now that you explained it.I would love to make tables some day. I feel it would just take me forever to figure it all out. I think my wife might hunt you all done as well and tell you to quit giving me ideas. Maybe someday. I have really enjoyed working with photoshop. I had never touched it until I designed my cabinet artwork. Very awesome program!
It is back of the envelope math, based on what we’ve spent on our own cab ($1k in so far, I’m expecting another $1k in the next year), and knowing that we’re using high grade materials in it, where a lazy commercial pincab seller is willing to cut corners on the grade of materials, counting on the decals/paint to cover the sins. And knowing that, if he’s on VP9, the local guy probably downloaded a torrent archive and has probably never ever ever actually seen the non-commercial license.
Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.You need to login in order to like this post: click here
I have been in & out of this hobby since Pinball Construction Set on the commodore 64, I remember when Pinmame and Virtual Pinball were two programs that had to be configured and run separately, I only got back into this hobby a year ago when I built my cab, I have helped a few people with minor problems, mostly because my memory isn’t so good anymore, however, I do remember that a lot of the names that I see today are different from the names I used to see back in 2002 on the 15 or more different websites that used to be around, I agree that people should not be selling authors hard work, however, I wonder if this hobby would even still be around if the places to learn and develop made it more difficult for new people to hone their skills. This hobby like the original Mame is somewhat of a niche hobby, not everyone wants a video game machine, or a virtual pinball cab. How many members are even on this site 20,000? Out of a billion people on the planet. And how many shitty machines do these sellers sell to rich idiots who don’t have the know how to fix it when it when it crashes in 6 months, 7 a year 10 tops. The world is becoming the biggest episode of the Twilight Zone ever and The monsters on maple street recruit a few more monsters everyday and when it all comes crashing down some will think “Huh, maybe I shouldn’t have made such a big deal of a few bad apples.” Just my opinion, I could be wrong
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I don’t know what a VPN is so I guess i don’t use it.
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Hi I’ve started my pincab end november last year by converting an old pat hand which was really out of order…
I like to build a vpx version of pat hand. For now I am only consuming… I think after nearly a year
I understand how components are working together. It’s really hard to start with the first own vpx project.
Many many things to learn… yes there is a great community which supports the ones starting…
It’s hard to see someone making money by selling the vpins with software created by the community in their spare time.
This won’t be possible in germany
On the other hand side I guess that some of the silent members are thinking about creating their own vpx project – like me…
Until I upload the first parts I can only join the group who send big thanks to the table authors!
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Was the vpn block implemented? I got a weird message last night about not being able to access the site.
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@randr isn’t avail right now (back in a couple of days) and is the only one that can answer that question.
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