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Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 74 total)
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  • #138665
    Tom
    Participant
    @armyaviation
    MemberContributor

    I knew I would hear from @TerryRed, I mean Terry the Conquerer or Nordic God as some have put it.  The Air Force is just a civilized form of the Army where all the smart guys go.  How about this, I forbid you to go @Dozer.  Your not allowed to quit!   How do you like them apples?

     

    #138670
    JR
    Participant
    @jfr1
    Member

    Dozer, your amazing AFM was the table running the very first time I showed off my cab.  Buddy of mine – IT project manager for PPG (knows a thing or two about computers) walks over, stares down, taps on the glass, looks back up and says – – “Explain to me what I’m seeing.  This isn’t real?”      ..and it’s not a 4k screen even!

    The voices here on this thread are a who’s who…of what’s brought this magic into my life and yep, that’s what it is.  Magic.  Sorry one of the magicians needs to step away.

    #138675
    LynnInDenver
    Participant
    @lynnindenver
    Member

    Yeah, AFM and Medieval Madness, both those I have are what I consider “definitive” versions by Dozer. That I can “mod” AFM like a real table, with sideblades and UV ink, is just incredible.

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138676
    Tom
    Participant
    @armyaviation
    MemberContributor

    stop talking about him like he is dead! he is not leaving, he is not allowed to

    #138677
    TerryRed
    Moderator
    @terryred
    MemberContributorModerator

    @randr I know you mention seeing adds on Youtube channels when viewing videos of your own tables or others works…

     

    Youtube “forces” ads on videos with any copyrighted music on it… so even if the user doesn’t monetize their channel…they get no choice with adds being shown on it in those cases.

    #138685
    Jesperpark
    Participant
    @jesperpark
    Member

    Well sorry you feel that way Dozer, but like many have said it’s your choice and I respect your choice to pull your tables.  I will still enjoy them too like all of us do.  Make sure to stay around and provide wisdom and sage advise still.

    #138689
    Drybonz
    Participant
    @drybonz
    Member

    The problem with the idea of any kind of legal stuff is that it brings unwanted attention to a hobby that has been carefully nestled in a place where it doesn’t receive much outside attention and then things like Ghostbusters start to happen, and probably worse.

    Probably better to be a little more liberal with the banhammer and get rid of individual problematic cases with a quickness.  Randr, I know you are a very easy going guy and I think everyone would agree that you are, myself included… but sometimes you just have to get rid of a few potential problems to keep things running smooth… whether it is issues with tables for profit, or with the recent “modding without permission” issues (this guy is still going strong at VPF with zero reprecussions)… just ban them and avoid the drama.

    Anyway, that’s my simple suggestion… as Wildman and some others pointed out… you can’t get rid of them all so you have to either decide to win or lose.

    #138690
    Thalamus
    Moderator
    @thalamus
    ContributorMemberModerator

    How do you actually ban someone efficiently I wonder ? The only way, is that this site would start with a invite only or something in that direction. It is free to signup and you can get as many email addresses you want via google and other places. Blocking someone out is very hard. Just as hard as stopping someone on the other side of the world from making populated cabs for money. That is the fact as I see it.

    #138694
    Tom
    Participant
    @armyaviation
    MemberContributor

    I think the approach of shaming him in his own country and blaming him for the block was and would provide results.  Unfortunately the block was lifted before the YouTube videos were removed and updated. If he made those he can make others.  That is step 1.  As far as this country I think we should start on eBay and other popular sites for selling these games.  We approach them ourselves.  If that doesn’t work we have a lawyer approach them.  Each one of these owners has contact info public, we can call them and politely ask for them to sell their tables our way, which needs to be defined.  If they choose to not cooperate and eBay and other sites don’t work then we resort to other means.  How many members are on this site, thousands.  How well would your business run if you got thousands of calls and thousands of emails every day.  Not well I imagine. If it were me I would cooperate and have a happy business.  There is nothing illegal to say

    “company x, with phone number and email x needs to be contacted to be made aware of what they are doing wrong.  If you are a member of VPB it is your duty to protect our rights by contacting them”

    that shit will work.  Or they change their number and it starts all over.  This is easy and quite fun.

    As far a bigus1 and others like him…he clearly doesn’t get or care about proper etiquette, it has been explained more than once.  We don’t need him here and I vote him and others that demonstrate his unwillingness to get along should be shown the door.  He has a home at VPF!

    These problems are never going to be completely gone.  Frankly if someone lies to us that they don’t include tables, they don’t advertise that they include tables, and they still ship with tables then that is the best we can hope for.  The issue seems to be when they brag about it on YouTube or other outlets.  Let’s fix it as best we can and go on with our lives.  This operation can be setup easily and quickly and be managed covertly

     

    #138697
    Tom
    Participant
    @armyaviation
    MemberContributor

    In order for this operation to work we would need to setup a detailed plan of action before we start laying out our intent, course of action, goals and strict rules of engagement.  Then we get everyone onboard by instituting a severe policy that most will not like but must be done, VPB will be shut down for all operations except forums for communications.  We will define a start date, a goal, and an end date when certain goals are met, call it a Virtual Strike.  When we feel the point has been made then we reopen the site and establish communications with the operators of these establishments to establish rules on what they can use and what they must assist their customers in obtaining.

    This will be short hopefully a month or less, might be painful to some,  but is much needed to keep our members from leaving because they feel they have to or we aren’t doing enough for them.  Unfortunately other than the Australian apology the other week, I have not seen much action or plans put out there.   This is my suggestion

    #138698
    sheltemke
    Participant
    @sheltemke
    Member

    Hey guys

    I have different feelings to be honest.

    The first and most important – even if i don’t know its a temporary “break” for Dozer or final(my english is not perfect, and noone can tell what future brings us) – i want to say a BIG thank you to you Dozer for the amazing tables you shared in the past (Indianapolis 500 is in my top3 MOST PLAYING table ..for me that will be always the best Racing Pinball Table ever and your table is visually one of the most beautiful VPX tables i ever played).

    Second feeling: I did some little graphical updates in past (VP9 2 or 3  table ?) and i remember only using Photoshop and solving some bugs took 1 week or more to be done, it was that much work…so making a table from scratch how much time and energy can be those guys who sell cabinets with tables cannot imagine…So in the “bad times” like this when one of the best author leaves or take a break i always realize that every table we players have had so much work time, so much energy, than every table especially the great looking vp10 tables are TREASURES…and i will play ages (there is some VP9 table i still play).

    Very SAD that there is some greedy man selling those cabinets@tables with no respect but -and here is my third feeling – is there really worth to stay back and let them win?

    I mean there are MANY grow up men who think you are HEROES (dont laugh i am serious about this  :-)   ) and even if i absolutely respect your decision Dozer and i got some table from you what noone can take from me ever(my TREASURES… I like gollum in LOTR about this) i think MUCH more important to CARE those people (and their kids who plays too!!!) who FALLED IN LOVE in your tables and i think MUCH more important to continue what you LOVE TO DO, and more important DO what you are best of  skills(making tables) than caring some who get money from your work…

    It’s just my opinion and i say again absolutely respect your decision…and i dont like to repeat myself usually but i want to THANK YOU the amazing tables you made, the only thing i can promise in exchange i will play and enjoy them for years…. :good:

     

     

    #138699
    Tom
    Participant
    @armyaviation
    MemberContributor

    We can either act or continue with the calling hours but I fear there will be more if we just do nothing

    #138701
    buttsy19
    Participant
    @buttsy19

    Ok so i will be the one to talk about the obvious elephant in the room, none of us in this community would be able to play, or create these masterpieces without the engine that drives them. visual pinball itself. To protect authors content and give credit where credit is due maybe it is time to put an end to free licence. i was brought up to believe that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and yet here we are gorging ourselves on a vast free banquet. I understand the concept of free ware and open source distribution and all the benefits that it gives to a community such as ours, but look what is happening, table authors seemingly loosing the will to carry on because someone is making a profit, but what if that program could only be used for a small charge the proceeds of which could be distributed to whatever the administrators of said program decided, be it site costs, server costs, charity the list is endless so long as it is used and agreed on by all parties for the benefit of the community at least then talented table authors, backglass creators, wheel image creators and coders may be able to justify the endless hours that they put into their creations would be benefiting the comunity as a whole because someone has made a pledge to purchase the engine that drives this great community. I’m probably going to take a lot of flack for this post but so be it, let the flogging begin.

     

    #138704
    -RpT
    Participant
    @rpt
    Member

    +1 what terry said.

    As for sites that don’t allow you to redact your content, that’s a fucking disgrace and I would never upload to such a forum (better just to send out mega links on facebook and retain control, sadly).

    For the cab seller problem. It’s definitely a thorn in the side of many who have been here for a while and not to downplay the annoyance but it’s not going away and there is very little that can be done that wouldn’t also hurt the legit users (especially new people). Cabinet sellers already have a very full set at their disposal to sell with even without any new tables being added so although we can potentially do things to restrict access to new tables (such as a very closed down and passworded forum, with a strict barrier to entry – invite only and you then also have to contribute). You could then have table makers release a “community version” with watermarks hard coded onto the art files for the first year or two of general release. This could be an option for table creators if they so choose. Again it’s an idea but i don’t think it’s particularly viable. Aside from anything there is a “complete” torrent that goes up on a certain, very popular private gaming/roms tracker almost annually so these packs are out there to exploit. That is the nature of the public facing internet, for better or worse.

    Generally i think VP is experiencing a growth spurt right now of new people (i include myself in this despite watching from the sidelines a while prior to taking the plunge). This will (as is to be expected) be primarily consumers and not contributors, at least outside of donation drives and you could see it as the end of an era… but that just means the beginning of a new chapter. Mark my words, new people with ideas of their own they wish to bring to reality are already starting their journey into the VPIN hobby and we will likely see the fruits of this over the coming years… there is definitely a steep learning curve here so it takes time. This growth can be also attributed to the excellent resources that people have been creating – it reduces the barrier to entry for everyone, cab sellers, table makers, retired users who find the whole thing a headache, the lot!

    The stigma around cab sellers is appropriate and maybe all we have to work with since to take further actions is to throw the baby out with the bathwater, sadly…. short of hiring a DDOS on these seller sites or other probably illegal direct action against them (this is not a serious suggestion, folks)! you could also refuse any help or support to known customers of these sellers which i think is a bit too mean. Or maybe it is a problem that we need to have a much more locked down forum to fix so that any leaks actually have a hope of being detected. If/when i create something like an original table i would just share it normally as to limit the audience out of fear for table sellers i feel is like admitting defeat.

    A payed licence for full version VPX is not the worst idea in the world but again it might be too late and it does come with a lot of extra work, locking down access to the code to try and delay it being cracked, the ongoing back and forth between someone cracking the copy protection and new one being written. Certain people then might have a problem with the VPX creators being paid where table makers still are not, etc, etc. I feel this would have to come with a VP11 to be viable since VPX already has so much content.

    As for Dozer and any who share their creations, thanks for everything as without you I would not be here creating this post. Make the art you want to make, share if you are happy for others to also experience it and if using a copyrighted assets (albeit as fair use) just release under a pseudonym instead of a real name and sleep easy. No-one’s getting sued, cabs seized or any of the other crazyness that I have heard concerns over, there’s very little money kicking about for legal action to be worth it and i would strongly advocate that many vpin users also yearn for the real machine in their home at some stage so any exposure to pinball is in my mind a good thing. We need new generations of pinball enthusiasts across the board and vpin is a perfect gateway for people who had never even considered the hobby to suddenly get bitten by the pinball bug!

    #138705
    randr
    Keymaster
    @randr
    ModeratorMember

    @randr I know you mention seeing adds on Youtube channels when viewing videos of your own tables or others works…

     

    Youtube “forces” ads on videos with any copyrighted music on it… so even if the user doesn’t monetize their channel…they get no choice with adds being shown on it in those cases.



    @terryred
    I think it’s just the opposite they will DEMONITIZE video if it has copyrighted content. Thing is the uploader chooses to monitize or not it’s an option in your preferences on YouTube. Anyways it’s really great watching ads just to be able to watch a silly video about VP.

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    for IOS and Android

    ********************************************************

    #138706
    LynnInDenver
    Participant
    @lynnindenver
    Member

    Regarding Bigus, it’s looking like Noah may have at least locked off the tables he uploaded that were directly complained about. But on the other hand, Noah does seem to dislike the idea of putting someone in the heavy moderat queue – in spite of being the type to readily reach for the “automatically replace x phrase” with things like Pin2DMD discussion and the old issue of links to VPU and here.

    On YouTube, my understanding is that some of the copyright holders have it set that, if their content is detected, it stays up, but a form of monetization is then enabled, so ads start specifically being applied, but with the revenue going towards that copyright holder. The video uploader has two choices: tolerate the ad, or remove the content that activated the feature, in this case muting the specific section of audio.

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138709
    randr
    Keymaster
    @randr
    ModeratorMember

    +1 what terry said.

    As for sites that don’t allow you to redact your content, that’s a fucking disgrace and I would never upload to such a forum (better just to send out mega links on facebook and retain control, sadly).

    For the cab seller problem. It’s definitely a thorn in the side of many who have been here for a while and not to downplay the annoyance but it’s not going away and there is very little that can be done that wouldn’t also hurt the legit users (especially new people). Cabinet sellers already have a very full set at their disposal to sell with even without any new tables being added so although we can potentially do things to restrict access to new tables (such as a very closed down and passworded forum, with a strict barrier to entry – invite only and you then also have to contribute). You could then have table makers release a “community version” with watermarks hard coded onto the art files for the first year or two of general release. This could be an option for table creators if they so choose. Again it’s an idea but i don’t think it’s particularly viable. Aside from anything there is a “complete” torrent that goes up on a certain, very popular private gaming/roms tracker almost annually so these packs are out there to exploit. That is the nature of the public facing internet, for better or worse.

    Generally i think VP is experiencing a growth spurt right now of new people (i include myself in this despite watching from the sidelines a while prior to taking the plunge). This will (as is to be expected) be primarily consumers and not contributors, at least outside of donation drives and you could see it as the end of an era… but that just means the beginning of a new chapter. Mark my words, new people with ideas of their own they wish to bring to reality are already starting their journey into the VPIN hobby and we will likely see the fruits of this over the coming years… there is definitely a steep learning curve here so it takes time. This growth can be also attributed to the excellent resources that people have been creating – it reduces the barrier to entry for everyone, cab sellers, table makers, retired users who find the whole thing a headache, the lot!

    The stigma around cab sellers is appropriate and maybe all we have to work with since to take further actions is to throw the baby out with the bathwater, sadly…. short of hiring a DDOS on these seller sites or other probably illegal direct action against them (this is not a serious suggestion, folks)! you could also refuse any help or support to known customers of these sellers which i think is a bit too mean. Or maybe it is a problem that we need to have a much more locked down forum to fix so that any leaks actually have a hope of being detected. If/when i create something like an original table i would just share it normally as to limit the audience out of fear for table sellers i feel is like admitting defeat.

    A payed licence for full version VPX is not the worst idea in the world but again it might be too late and it does come with a lot of extra work, locking down access to the code to try and delay it being cracked, the ongoing back and forth between someone cracking the copy protection and new one being written. Certain people then might have a problem with the VPX creators being paid where table makers still are not, etc, etc. I feel this would have to come with a VP11 to be viable since VPX already has so much content.

    As for Dozer and any who share their creations, thanks for everything as without you I would not be here creating this post. Make the art you want to make, share if you are happy for others to also experience it and if using a copyrighted assets (albeit as fair use) just release under a pseudonym instead of a real name and sleep easy. No-one’s getting sued, cabs seized or any of the other crazyness that I have heard concerns over, there’s very little money kicking about for legal action to be worth it and i would strongly advocate that many vpin users also yearn for the real machine in their home at some stage so any exposure to pinball is in my mind a good thing. We need new generations of pinball enthusiasts across the board and vpin is a perfect gateway for people who had never even considered the hobby to suddenly get bitten by the pinball bug!

    that is why I added the option to make an official upload but clicking “vpb download” redirects to url of file wherever it’s hosted. Look at the rocky b2s I added as example.

    Uploaders should have the right to remove their contributions even though it sucks when they do get removed.

    ********************************************************
    Messing with the VPinball app and push notifications.
    So if you haven't downloaded app yet what are you waiting for!?
    for IOS and Android

    ********************************************************

    #138710
    LynnInDenver
    Participant
    @lynnindenver
    Member

    BTW, there is a set of issues with trying to take Visual Pinball into a paid model, outside of the whole “have to enter the DRM wars to make it stick” or “have to go on Steam to help make it stick”, and that’s the specifically non-commercial license, plus it being open source, or more specifically, the way they have to go about changing the license. MAME had a similar issue when they transitioned over to an unrestricted open source license.

    And that is that 100% of the contributors have to be in to do it. Basically speaking, to change the model like that, if a contributor can’t be contacted, or isn’t willing to let the license change, their contribution needs to be pulled to enable the change. This was what wrecked the Fire Burn Alpha development team, and caused most of them to leave and regroup as Fire Burn Neo, as their lead decided to negotiate a commercial license without checking with the rest of the team first. MAME had to step back some functions for a time because they had to pull those bits of code to enable the change from noncommercial.

    Actually, as an aside, there are actually two projects that would need to make that change – Visual Pinball being the obvious one, but also PinMAME, since that’s a big piece of functionality woven into Visual Pinball.

    And then we can address the fact that, once it can start taking in money? That actually increases the cross section of visibility in terms of the IP holders that we’re always worried about. I’m pretty sure at least one – if not all – of them keep tabs on things on the various pieces of the VP hobby. Here, VPF, VPU, PinballNirvana, and probably even the Future Pinball focused sites. This is the case with replica prop makers as well – many of the IP holders that their work gets replicated, they’re well aware of who’s operating in those spaces, and each of them has a threshold where they’ll allow things to happen, but cross that threshold and you see a lawyer at your workshop door with a C&D to hand over. Having VP going into any sort of paid model does bring the whole thing closer to that threshold where, say, Gottlieb draws up the papers and asks that the drivers be completely sunsetted from the software, and that none of the sites get to have anything Gottlieb at all.

    Creator of the first PinupPlayer PostDMD mods for VPX - PostDMD for Masters of the Universe VPX and Jaws VPX.
    Head Proprietor of Pisces Pinball, a VPX table developer.
    Lead Technician of MC Chase Amusements, a private arcade in our home basement.

    #138713
    -RpT
    Participant
    @rpt
    Member

    Final burn alpha is/was the effort of a group of people who agreed to work as community to create a free emulator. Not all ultimately agreed to have this sold in some way (to allow capcom to produce their arcade stick console which uses the emulator and possibly others which i might not be aware of for commercial use). Essentially, from what i heard someone went rogue over there as all that work was done under the agreement that it’s a project not for profit… whoever made the deal with Capcom wasn’t entirely in the right to do so but then it’s kind of the wild west in this space anyway as per IP holders, etc. Capcom might just have done the same without even seeking a licence knowing how they can be – taking a calculated risk that the other side would back down instead of picking up the legal gauntlet but that is of course speculation.

    I don’t think paid VPX is really viable at all but you wouldn’t need to include PINMAME necessarily if that was to be the route. It’s called by tables where a real machine’s rom is needed but isn’t inseparable to VPX as far as I have seen. Correct me if i’m wrong here please.

    While someone might technically be in their legal right to claim against a project which is using their IP, again, doesn’t mean it’s actually worth doing so. This is a business decision and although people are concerned there isn’t any precedent outside of things like the Ghostbusters situation (very different as a DLL was taken from a commercial product to in fact make that happen). And again, who you gonna file the complaint against? At worst a hosting site such as vpinball, that could take it down on request to avoid any kind of action. No-one is going to go after creators directly, especially if you first have to go to a different legal jurisdiction then work out the real name of “vpinmakerguy1989” or whatever the uploader’s handle is. It’s simply not worth their effort unless it represents a lost sale which it doesn’t (and as i wrote before could be argued as free publicity for their company/products).

    The problem people have is a moralistic one with cab sellers. It’s not really something that can be fixed with technical solution, as with the cracking scene generally the “bad actor” in this case has the advantage of just being able to react and adapt where the people trying to protect VPX are having to do a lot of extra work with very little incentive to do so (unlike a table or something which is a labour of love).

    Personally i don’t loose any sleep over the cab seller stuff and probably karma will sort them out in the end, that’s not to say it’s not a legit concern but i believe when there’s nothing you can do it’s often best to do nothing, for your own sanity if nothing else…

    #138720
    TerryRed
    Moderator
    @terryred
    MemberContributorModerator

    Regarding Bigus, it’s looking like Noah may have at least locked off the tables he uploaded that were directly complained about. But on the other hand, Noah does seem to dislike the idea of putting someone in the heavy moderat queue – in spite of being the type to readily reach for the “automatically replace x phrase” with things like Pin2DMD discussion and the old issue of links to VPU and here.

    On YouTube, my understanding is that some of the copyright holders have it set that, if their content is detected, it stays up, but a form of monetization is then enabled, so ads start specifically being applied, but with the revenue going towards that copyright holder. The video uploader has two choices: tolerate the ad, or remove the content that activated the feature, in this case muting the specific section of audio.



    @randr
    …like was she said.

    My channel is not monetized. As someone who posts various VPX, FP, FX3, etc videos….. I tend to get…well… A LOT of copyright notices about my channel. It’s exactly like Lynn describes. I don’t get to chose if my videos show ads. They are forced on my videos because of the copyrighted music they contain…and if there is any revenue… it “may” goto the copyright holder. (You get an email notice from Google indicating this).

    My channel doesn’t exactly get 6 digit numbers for views, so no ones’ making money off my channel. :)

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 74 total)
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